i have a predisposition to never want any spiders or morphs

[Herps4Jesus]

I have a black bee female which only shows signs when she eats. She gets so excited her head bobs up and down, but she's a deadly shot. I also have a spider het clown that shows zero signs. Both eat live and frozen thawed just fine, the black bee, if she touches the hair on my arm or I touch a rat pup to her nose, will wipe her nose off, which is kinda hysterical to watch, but she goes back to normal. Neither do the upside down slither or anything. Both came from the same breeder who tries not to carry on the line if there is any wobble in the parents. Can it be bread out, I certainly don't know.

I do plan on breeding my snakes, but I will not breed these two females (even thought the possibilities are awesome with my banana and pastel). I see no reason to amplify the trait or carry on the gene. Some i've seen as babies are atrocious. The two I have, didn't have any immediate sign.

To each their own. It's all good. Do what is good in your conscience.

[zina10]

If it wasn't for the spider morph, I wouldn't have my beautiful, sweet little Maya. My first morph and simply the Best. Never upset or flighty or cranky. Always easygoing and sweet. No visible wobble or issue, although I know she carries it.
I can't help but say she is my favorite (well, so are the others, but she is a bit more)


Here she is "then". Almost 7 years ago








and now. From yesterday:



She has days where she is darker or lighter, but she is always beautiful. I just love that snake..

[rlditmars]

I've mentioned in the past that I will not own or work with the spider gene because of the wobble. I do not condemn those that wish to do so but I can't in good conscience do it myself.

If I were to put it in relative human terms, I've never met a person with Down's Syndrome who wasn't sweet, gentle, compassionate, and for the most part very lovable. A world filled with people whose dispositions where like that, would probably be a nicer world. But there are clearly deficits when we examine the whole being. It would be self indulgent and irresponsible for me to ignore those deficits and produce people with the syndrome, just to reap the characteristics I desire.

As hyperbolic as my example may be, we don't/can't really know what's going on with snakes that carry the spider gene beyond what we see. To assume the animal is fine because it lives, eats , and poops is cavalier. Please be reminded that people with Down's Syndrome live, eat, and poop. This is just my $0.02.

I shall now run for cover while you light the torches and grab the pitchforks.

[kxr]

I've mentioned in the past that I will not own or work with the spider gene because of the wobble. I do not condemn those that wish to do so but I can't in good conscience do it myself.

If I were to put it in relative human terms, I've never met a person with Down's Syndrome who wasn't sweet, gentle, compassionate, and for the most part very lovable. A world filled with people whose dispositions where like that, would probably be a nicer world. But there are clearly deficits when we examine the whole being. It would be self indulgent and irresponsible for me to ignore those deficits and produce people with the syndrome, just to reap the characteristics I desire.

As hyperbolic as my example may be, we don't/can't really know what's going on with snakes that carry the spider gene beyond what we see. To assume the animal is fine because it lives, eats , and poops is cavalier. Please be reminded that people with Down's Syndrome live, eat, and poop. This is just my $0.02.

I shall now run for cover while you light the torches and grab the pitchforks.

This is a very good argument. I know stopping at combos with multiple wobbly genes is kind of arbitrary but this is my logic for using that as a stopping point.

I've heard spider is the gene with the worst wobble (that could be wrong) but I've seen plenty of spiders that seem to be fine (of course we can't know for sure as you stated). To me it doesn't make sense how two genes that both cause wobble couldn't make it worse (unless they cancel it out entirely). Regardless of whether it's an additive effect or a multiplicative effect it's just not something I want to do. The animal might seem completely fine and appear to thrive but it seems immoral to me.


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[zina10]

I've mentioned in the past that I will not own or work with the spider gene because of the wobble. I do not condemn those that wish to do so but I can't in good conscience do it myself.

If I were to put it in relative human terms, I've never met a person with Down's Syndrome who wasn't sweet, gentle, compassionate, and for the most part very lovable. A world filled with people whose dispositions where like that, would probably be a nicer world. But there are clearly deficits when we examine the whole being. It would be self indulgent and irresponsible for me to ignore those deficits and produce people with the syndrome, just to reap the characteristics I desire.

As hyperbolic as my example may be, we don't/can't really know what's going on with snakes that carry the spider gene beyond what we see. To assume the animal is fine because it lives, eats , and poops is cavalier. Please be reminded that people with Down's Syndrome live, eat, and poop. This is just my $0.02.

I shall now run for cover while you light the torches and grab the pitchforks.

No-one is going to grab pitch forks, LOL !!

This is a discussion forum, and discussing is what we do We all have opinions and they don't have to be the same.

That said, I really do not think that is comparable. There are PLENTY of spider morphs who aren't nice and sweet. There are plenty of other morphs that are. I don't think temperament plays into it. I like my Bumble bee because she IS a wonderful snake, not because she is a spider. She isn't sweet because she is a spider.

Also, every time when you breed for one certain trait only, and in this case it is a aberration of the "normal" genetics, then you can and usually will run into problems. Heavily in-breeding a genetic abnormality comes with a price. Perhaps they aren't all as visible as a wobble. But they are there. There are a few morphs that display problems. No-one would breed people together to create funky "colors" and traits either. For all you know, the morphs YOU like are actually "autistic", you wouldn't know, would you? They don't have to display a wobble to have issues such as that. And once you knew about it, what would you do? There can be many issues that are there, but the snakes still eat, poop, move and appear fine, because Ball Pythons don't do much to begin with. Not all issues present neurotic, fatal or severe. Those are the only ones we notice, though.

I do know people that are purist and find the entire morph breeding abhorrent for those reasons. They will only consider "normals". And I respect that.

[predatorkeeper87]

I've mentioned in the past that I will not own or work with the spider gene because of the wobble. I do not condemn those that wish to do so but I can't in good conscience do it myself.

If I were to put it in relative human terms, I've never met a person with Down's Syndrome who wasn't sweet, gentle, compassionate, and for the most part very lovable. A world filled with people whose dispositions where like that, would probably be a nicer world. But there are clearly deficits when we examine the whole being. It would be self indulgent and irresponsible for me to ignore those deficits and produce people with the syndrome, just to reap the characteristics I desire.

As hyperbolic as my example may be, we don't/can't really know what's going on with snakes that carry the spider gene beyond what we see. To assume the animal is fine because it lives, eats , and poops is cavalier. Please be reminded that people with Down's Syndrome live, eat, and poop. This is just my $0.02.

I shall now run for cover while you light the torches and grab the pitchforks.

it all comes down to what we as either keepers or breeders feel for the snakes. I can certainly understand the abstaining from using spider in any projects at all.

I however do have a beautiful mojo spider male with, as far as I can tell physically, almost no wobble. He will on occasion flip just his head over if he misses a strike, but other than that he acts perfectly normal. I do plan on using him in a few projects coming up, but if he produces any offspring with even a moderately more noticeable wobble I will abstain from using him any more.

I wish there was a way to tell if the snakes are in any kind of distress even if they don't show any physical signs. Mine eats like a champ on live only right now, and sheds perfect every time so he must be feeling ok haha, but again neither I or anyone else can truly know how they feel.