Opinion: Do you find breeding spiders unethical?

[wolfy-hound]

I can't believe there's yet ANOTHER thread for the same people to repeat the same arguments all over again. Do a search on this site and you'll find a dozen threads easily and they all end up saying the same things.

Some people don't like the wobble and would never breed and some of those even try to wail that anyone who differs in opinion is cruel/greedy/immoral/etc.

Some people don't mind the wobble and own and/or breed with zero problems.

If you don't like spiders, don't own a spider. Making up junk about spiders not being able to survive, being in pain or distress and etc when you don't even OWN a spider is in itself immoral.

Albinos would die in the wild. In fact, most of our snakes would die in the wild even if they were normals because most babies in most species do not survive to adulthood. A spider was first discovered as a wild morph so it obviously did survive despite everyone's concerns.

[Maymay]

I can't believe there's yet ANOTHER thread for the same people to repeat the same arguments all over again. Do a search on this site and you'll find a dozen threads easily and they all end up saying the same things.

My apologies, I'm a noob to this site and the reptile community. Someone linked me to a useful thread. I wasn't trying to be redundant, just genuinely wanted to know and didn't know this was already a thoroughly discussed topic :p

[the_rotten1]

Thanks for this input. I also wanted to comment that Vriska is a very cool and unique name!!

You probably wouldn't say that if you knew what it was from.

But thanks!

wait one minute here. My wife would beg to differ, she sees all these balls my kids have as a very invasive species in our home. Actually, she also considers them a public nuisance. Lol. She hates snakes, but boy is she good to my girls and I for letting them live in our house. Just trying to get a nice display snake for the bedroom and she isn't going for that.

To each their own. It's good that she's letting you guys keep them though. My Dad hated rats, so we could never have them as pets. Now I have six of them.

[danielwilu2525]

In my opinion, I wouldn't mind people producing it, but I hate it when it goes into high end morphs. I personally dont like the head wobble, I wouldn't breed them at all. I don't want to bring lives into this world with a deformity :/

[AntTheDestroyer]

Its not that its an unpopular opinion but more a lack of knowledge and research.
I often find it entertaining in this hobby that much of these started as "one time" or "a friend of mine"....

A lack of research? For some it is as simple as not breeding animals that have a known neurological disorder. It is no doubt an unpopular opinion and anyone who expresses it is generally accused of being uneducated. As long as we are oversimplifying I think most bulldog breeders would argue they eat, sleep and poop like any other dog. I have not ever owned a spider, and will not as I do not believe in breeding animals with neurological issues.

[dmt_jovi]

Thank you for this useful thread!

No problem Although I thought with me linking to that thread the discussion would be very minimal, guess I was wrong!


Now since this discussion seems to carry on, let's do some thinking regarding the wobble issue.

As far as we know, even in the scientific community, the wobble does not affect the snake's life or health in any major way (except maybe some truly extreme examples, but that happens with any condition you can think of).
The snake will still eat, pee, poop, shed, breed, slither arround, and do any other thing a "normal" snake can do. They don't show any inherent sign of stress or health issue directly related to the wobble. The only thing that makes them any different from a "normal" snake is they wobble a little here and there (mostly when they get excited like when it's feeding time)

Now that we have this foundation of how the wobble affects the snake's life we can do something people love to do: anthropomorphize! (which in itself isn't bad, it helps us interpret and understand the world arround us, we just have to know when to draw the line based on scientific evidences)

Now what can make us humans look "weird" like a snake with the wobble and, like the wobble, will not affect our life in any major way?
I thought of someone with a limp.
People who have a limp can still live a very healthy and fullfilling life, they can do whatever a normal person can do, some even become runners or gymnasts.


Now the big question comes:
Would you oppose someone with a limp having children?


Yes you can argue that we are the ones reproducing the snakes and it's not their complete choice, however that is somewhat incorrect. We don't inseminate the females or force the intercourse, we just create the best environment for them to reproduce, if the snakes don't want to lock with one another they won't.



Like some people said before me, when I started to get into this hobby/culture, the wobble issue made me ask all kinds of questions and I did my research to get the answers to those questions, after being well informed about the issue I formed my opinion on the topic which is that the "wobble issue" is actually a micro-issue instead of the major-how-can-people-do-this-to-the-snakes-issue.

So I get that people have questions, which is great because it means people want to learn more, the only thing I ask is for people to do their research before stating something as a fact online or in real life, because when we state something that is not correct as a fact we are spreading misinformation, which in the long run only holds back our hobby/culture (example: think about how people still think they have to move their snake to feed him or how every year or so the story about the snake sizing up their owner to eat him still pops up somewhere and people still take it as a fact).

[AntTheDestroyer]

Jovi, unless you have proof the scientific community has said the wobble does not affect the animals life, you are spreading the same misinformation you are so against. I would honestly be surprised if any scientific study had been done on the issue at all.

[salt]

I don't actually have an opinion on this issue but this paper(study?) is the one I keep seeing cited in arguments against spider.

[Seven-Thirty]

You probably wouldn't say that if you knew what it was from.

You hamsteak trash xD Vriskat otp.

I don't actually have an opinion on this issue but this paper(study?) is the one I keep seeing cited in arguments against spider.

I've read this paper and the conclusion was inconclusive saying that it needed more reasearch and a few of their key points are bases off the thought of, "how would I feel if I where this snake" and anthropomorphizing.
As for the scientific proof needed to prove that it doesnmt affect the animal's life, look around you. The spider is and always has been thriving the same way all other ball pythons do in captivity. They do all the things any other ball python does. Ball pythons are relatively simple creatures who just want to feel safe enough to eat, shed, etc. that's all they want. They don't need anything else. They don't need a branch to climb to "stimulation." They just want to hide and be left alone.

[CloudtheBoa]

I personally find it unethical, and won't buy from a breeder who breeds spiders at all. Not that I plan on ever owning another ball python any time soon. I don't care if it eats, I don't care if it breeds, I don't care how big and strong it gets. Whether or not the wobble affects their health or longevity, I can only imagine the wobble is extremely disorienting. From my understanding, they wobble because their internal balance is off and they feel they're not correctly oriented. Not exactly something I personally consider all that minor, however little it affects the snake's behavior. I have also had several owners tell me their spiders required enclosures with blocked off sides, additional cover, and little to no handling to keep the wobbling to a minimum, as the wobbling seems to heighten during times of stress. I've seen one or two cases where the wobble was so severe the snake couldn't eat. If this can happen, I don't care if it happens often I don't think it should be bred for because the chance to breed individuals who may not thrive, however little that chance is, still exists. Those few cases don't make up much of the spider population, but for me personally I don't really like those odds considering the gene is 100% linked to the pattern and it only varies by degree. It would be a different story if the wobble was able to be separated from the spider gene, but from current research that seems impossible. I'm not going to force anyone else to stop breeding them, but I'm certainly not going to support them with my business.