How Many Morphs Are Created Through Inbreeding?

[Snoop_Dong]

I've started to notice a somewhat not very talked about topic. The more i have looked into BP's, the more i notice very serious genetic problems with the more complex morphs. The Spider wobble didn't seem that much of a problem at first, that is until i started noticing some morphs inheriting "Duck bill" deformed mouths. I've even seen some morphs having blind eyes or even no eyes at all! Seems that the same thing which happened to dogs during the 1900's in Britain is now happening to BP's. Now i would greatly assume that the majority of you guys probably don't breed brother to sister or brother to mom, etc. but it does seem that has happened numerous times with other people and will continue happening. Is this some thing which is looked down upon?

[Naraku]

It's very unlikely spider wobble happens from inbreeding as iirc the first one had a wobble. Most genetic mishaps are caused through two genes being together as some can be fatal.

[Naraku]

Also inbreeding is safe for like the first 2 generations anyways. So even with new morphs they're usually done 2 generations then spread to other morphs. Not worthwhile to inbreed.

[Snoop_Dong]

Also inbreeding is safe for like the first 2 generations anyways. So even with new morphs they're usually done 2 generations then spread to other morphs. Not worthwhile to inbreeding

What about when it's a brand new morph? For example the new scaleless BP's will they breed them together to increase the amount they have?

[Snoop_Dong]

It's very unlikely spider wobble happens from inbreeding as iirc the first one had a wobble. Most genetic mishaps are caused through two genes being together as some can be fatal.

So the actual gene itself contains the wobble? Why do some Spider's of the same morph have varying degrees of the wobble in them?

[Stewart_Reptiles]

I've started to notice a somewhat not very talked about topic. The more i have looked into BP's, the more i notice very serious genetic problems with the more complex morphs. The Spider wobble didn't seem that much of a problem at first, that is until i started noticing some morphs inheriting "Duck bill" deformed mouths. I've even seen some morphs having blind eyes or even no eyes at all! Seems that the same thing which happened to dogs during the 1900's in Britain is now happening to BP's. Now i would greatly assume that the majority of you guys probably don't breed brother to sister or brother to mom, etc. but it does seem that has happened numerous times with other people and will continue happening. Is this some thing which is looked down upon?

Spider wobble is not due to inbreeding, spiders are one of the most outcross mutation out there and not many people do spider to spider breeding as there is really no point to it. Wobble cannot be bred out.

Duck billing has nothing to do with inbreeding either even when out-crossing with different line the problem still occurs.

If you believe that the issues seen with Black Pastel, Spider, Champagne or other mutations are due to inbreeding you have greatly been misinformed by people who do not know what they are talking about

[Stewart_Reptiles]

So the actual gene itself contains the wobble? Why do some Spider's of the same morph have varying degrees of the wobble in them?

Because not all show the same degree of wobbling from very mild to severe.

A severe wobbler can produce a mild wobbler and vice versa, wobble can be mild as hatchling and severa as adult and vice versa, things such as temps, stress may also affect the severity.

[aalomon]

I've started to notice a somewhat not very talked about topic. The more i have looked into BP's, the more i notice very serious genetic problems with the more complex morphs. The Spider wobble didn't seem that much of a problem at first, that is until i started noticing some morphs inheriting "Duck bill" deformed mouths. I've even seen some morphs having blind eyes or even no eyes at all! Seems that the same thing which happened to dogs during the 1900's in Britain is now happening to BP's. Now i would greatly assume that the majority of you guys probably don't breed brother to sister or brother to mom, etc. but it does seem that has happened numerous times with other people and will continue happening. Is this some thing which is looked down upon?

Dogs are very different from ball pythons. When breeding dogs youre trying to concentrate many polygenetic traits into a single animal. Your odds of this happening greatly increases when you line breed for generations and end up with a very limited gene pool. Inbreeding its self does not cause issues, but limiting the gene pool so severely magnifies any unwanted traits as well as any desired ones.

On the other hand with snakes the genetics we breed for are much more straightforward so outcrossing doesnt dilute the desired outcome.

Example: If there was 1 german shepherd in the world and you bred it to a lab, it would take a long time and a lot of inbreeding to get back to a "pure" shepherd. On the other hand if you take a pastel and breed it to a normal you get pastels in the first generation.

What about when it's a brand new morph? For example the new scaleless BP's will they breed them together to increase the amount they have?

Somewhat, but remember people also want to make combos with a new gene so new morphs have a lot of outcrossing done as well.

So the actual gene itself contains the wobble? Why do some Spider's of the same morph have varying degrees of the wobble in them?

Similar to why pieds can have varying amount of white, all spiders have wobble but the degree varies between individuals (the original spider wobbled). Actually spiders were one of the first popular ball pythons morphs so people bred them with everything they had, inbreeding had nothing to do with the wobble.

Ill also add this isnt a taboo topic at all. This exact conversation pops up on every forum a few times a year

[Snoop_Dong]

Spider wobble is not due to inbreeding, spiders are one of the most outcross mutation out there and not many people do spider to spider breeding as there is really no point to it. Wobble cannot be bred out.

Duck billing has nothing to do with inbreeding either even when out-crossing with different line the problem still occurs.

If you believe that the issues seen with Black Pastel, Spider, Champagne or other mutations are due to inbreeding you have greatly been misinformed by people who do not know what they are talking about

That makes me very happy to hear! I honestly thought that due to the more complex morphs back in the day people inbred due to lack of other BP's with similar desired genetics. What about the morphs which have so severe wobble they die younger, what is the point of making those morphs?

[Snoop_Dong]

Dogs are very different from ball pythons. When breeding dogs youre trying to concentrate many polygenetic traits into a single animal. Your odds of this happening greatly increases when you line breed for generations and end up with a very limited gene pool. Inbreeding its self does not cause issues, but limiting the gene pool so severely magnifies any unwanted traits as well as any desired ones.

On the other hand with snakes the genetics we breed for are much more straightforward so outcrossing doesnt dilute the desired outcome.

Example: If there was 1 german shepherd in the world and you bred it to a lab, it would take a long time and a lot of inbreeding to get back to a "pure" shepherd. On the other hand if you take a pastel and breed it to a normal you get pastels in the first generation.



Somewhat, but remember people also want to make combos with a new gene so new morphs have a lot of outcrossing done as well.



Similar to why pieds can have varying amount of white, all spiders have wobble but the degree varies between individuals (the original spider wobbled). Actually spiders were one of the first popular ball pythons morphs so people bred them with everything they had, inbreeding had nothing to do with the wobble.

Ill also add this isnt a taboo topic at all. This exact conversation pops up on every forum a few times a year

When a new morph contains a genetic defect does that lower their cost? Thank you by the way your post was very very helpful. Seems that with only basic grasp of inheritability that they teach in high school anyone could predict the genetics with BP's (Though it seems the more expensive/rare morphs usually have something more complex about them). So people don't inbreed BP's to make sure for example the lines of a pinstripe don't break off/separate? Oh, i thought it was taboo because no one ever really talked about it and some people would delete said comments haha but it seems comments were deleted because of annoyance not avoidance.