So what's the consensus on Spider x Spider?

[Galaxygirl]

I was under the impression that breeding a spider to another spider can result in dead hatchlings/is lethal? Same with Champagne to Spider? I talked to a breeder at Repticon today and asked him about it and he had no idea what I was talking about. Can you breed Spider x Spider safely?

[KitaCat]

There's a good blurb on spider x spider pairings at the bottom of this page: http://www.owalreptiles.com/issues.php

Personally, I wouldn't let it stop me from doing a pairing between snakes that both have the spider gene. I wouldn't do a plain Spider x Spider, because there's no genetic progress there, just more spiders. But perhaps two spider combos.
I'll admit though, that part of the reason I would do it is out of curiosity. Would I get a higher ratio of slugs? If so, maybe there's something to the theory that the combo is lethal.

[aalomon]

Ive seen this discussion a few times, and no one has had personal experience with increased egg loss, failure to thrives or trainwreck babies from spider x spider. There was one case where a white snake was produced and died but I personally think that was a fluke as its never been reproduced even though breeders do spider x spider pairings every year.

Personally I think the pairing is fine from a health perspective. I believe people only avoid it because most of the time you arent gaining much genetically from pairing a single gene spider to another spider gene animal.

[nightrainfalls]

so it is possible that there are homo spiders out there that we just don't know about. Still, we would expect that f1 spider x spider crosses would produce 25% f2 homo spider, 50% het spider, 25% homo normal. Under these circumstances, breeding f2 spider together should give us at least some f3 clutches that are 100% spider. We have been breeding spiders for a long time and no pair of spiders has consistently produced 100% spider litters. This suggests that homo spiders are non existent. It should be noted that the spider gene is either responsible for, or closely linked to a gene that is responsible for a serious neurological defect. It is highly likely that a double dose of this gene make it impossible for a viable snake to form and thrive. It is very likely that homo spider is lethal. Since some f2 litters have more slugs than expected, it is likely that homo spider is lethal at a very early stage.

Making this more likely is the fact that other genes that have the same neurological disorder have been shown to be homozygous lethal. For example, both spider and champagne wobble, and spider champagne in lethal. Champagne wobbles and super champagne is lethal.

In Short, double wobble= dead baby ball python.

David

[Galaxygirl]

Okay, we have a Queen Bee Male (Lesser Pastel Spider) and a Bumble Bee girl (Spider Pastel).

We've been trying to get a new male without spider since we thought we could not breed these two together without producing dead babies. So now it is to my understanding that they will not produce dead babies (since a homozygous spider is perhaps not even possible); But, I've read that Spider x Spider produce more slugs? Any insight on that? Or experience with severe wobble babies from Spider x Spider It seems like very little people have actually bred two Spider genes together. The breeder at Repticon says he's seen someone that's bred Spider x Spider with no issues, but he also didn't know about the lethal combo of champagne x spider so I'm kind of taking what he says with a grain of salt. I've also never seen someone breed a spider gene bp to another bp with spider in it. Everything I've read so far from research seems like speculation with no solid answers still.

[aalomon]

Okay, we have a Queen Bee Male (Lesser Pastel Spider) and a Bumble Bee girl (Spider Pastel).

We've been trying to get a new male without spider since we thought we could not breed these two together without producing dead babies. So now it is to my understanding that they will not produce dead babies (since a homozygous spider is perhaps not even possible); But, I've read that Spider x Spider produce more slugs? Any insight on that? Or experience with severe wobble babies from Spider x Spider It seems like very little people have actually bred two Spider genes together. The breeder at Repticon says he's seen someone that's bred Spider x Spider with no issues, but he also didn't know about the lethal combo of champagne x spider so I'm kind of taking what he says with a grain of salt. I've also never seen someone breed a spider gene bp to another bp with spider in it. Everything I've read so far from research seems like speculation with no solid answers still.

Spider x Spider pairings arent that uncommon, but many people dont advertise the pairing because it still starts arguments. From what Ive seen, there isnt an increase of slugs/dead eggs/failure to thrives even after years of debate. There have been people swearing its lethal, youll get trainwrecks, increased slugs, failure to thrives since 2009 but no one has ever backed up that claim. NERD bred spider x spider for years trying for a super, and didnt seem to hit anything visually different, but also didnt get any of the negative issues people are concerned with (its in one of their videos, Ill try and find it).

I really think spider is just dominant like pinstripe. Even though we know you can make healthy super pins and pinstripes are just as common as spiders, when was the last time you saw a super pin? It just takes too much time to prove out, most people are working on other projects and theres no way a buyer can know they are getting a super except by taking your work. You dont even see possible super pins that often. With all the stigma of the super spider, at this point I think that even if someone thought they had one they would be tempted not to advertize it. Who needs the argument?

[Tsanford]

What about spider x woma

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[ajmreptiles]

Here's a bit with Kevin talking about it
https://youtu.be/1SD9vNNQWC4?t=4m24s

[PhoenixGate]

Okay, so I'm curious now. If Spider x Spider pairings haven't produced a super spider, then how is it that the babies only inherit one copy of the gene? Statistically, there should have been some super spiders in there. Maybe there's something about the gene that simply prevents a zygote from thriving before it ever becomes an egg? I've had enough college and biology classes to think that logically, this shouldn't happen. There should have been some super spiders in all those experiments. The same thing applies to pinstripes.

[Galaxygirl]

Here's a bit with Kevin talking about it
https://youtu.be/1SD9vNNQWC4?t=4m24s

On an unrelated note, at about 16:10 they mention "Don't go into your breeding season if your female is colossal. You want to feed trigger." They talk about how their huge 3500g females would never build follicles because they wouldn't trigger the process with food. What does this mean?