Removing the clutch???

[maudie]

This might be a dumb question, but I am very new to all this, and looking for some information. But why does everybody remove the clutch from their females cage once she is finished laying, and put the eggs in a seperate tub for incubation? Couldn't she incubate them herself? How is it done in the wild, if it is necesarry to take them out in captivity? I am very curious about this. Again, sorry if this is a dumb question.

[BCS]

There is something called maternal incubation. I personally do not know anyone who does this but they do leave the eggs in with the dam. I personally would separate the eggs because the female may roll the eggs and even eat them. Also, in a controlled area like an incubator has a higher hatch rate then leaving it in with the dam.

[WmHrbst]

Using a incubator or choosing maternal Incubation is based on preference.
I choose to incubate the eggs my ball pythons lay because it provides the best chance at hatching the eggs with minimal problems. Maternal Incubation, works for some but it really depends on the environment and set up the individual uses. Humidity in some of my racks vary greatly depending on the time of year along with the ambient air temperature.
Using a incubator to hatch eggs also give the female 60 extra days to get her weight back up since she would not be around eggs, so for some they're able to breed that female again sooner.
Just a few reasons, I am sure everyone has different ones

[Alicia]

and even eat them.

Whaaaat? Seriously, has this happened to anyone doing MI with ball pythons? Ever? Or any other species of python, for that matter?

Back to incubating . . . I've done both. I deeply enjoyed MI and it was less stressful on the repeat mom I tried it with than removing her eggs. (This particular female is very 'broody.') On the other of the spectrum, I have a female who won't even coil her clutch and seems somewhat perplexed by them.

If set up right, MI is a fun and rewarding route to go. If set up incorrectly, yeah, you'll kill the eggs. But I can say the same of artificial incubation, on both counts.

[Tigerhawk]

They will eat there eggs ?

[maudie]

Hm, good to know. Thanks for all of your responses!

[aalomon]

You also have to remember that in the wild the female has 100% control of where she lays and incubates her eggs. Here, she is completely dependent on how we set up her tub.

[bondo]

You also have to remember that in the wild the female has 100% control of where she lays and incubates her eggs. Here, she is completely dependent on how we set up her tub.

Great point. Also she would go without eating during the process. Most balls lose about a third of their weight when they lay. Going 2 more months without eating just seems to be putting extra strain on where it isn't needed.

[Paul's Pieds]

Alicia can you give more info please. I do not know anyone who has done MI and I have only read one article on it. I would love to know more from someone who has successfully achieved this.

[Alicia]

Alicia can you give more info please. I do not know anyone who has done MI and I have only read one article on it. I would love to know more from someone who has successfully achieved this.

Sure thing. I'll make this kinda quick, so I don't totally hijack the thread, but, in general . . .

The snake I tried MI with was a second-time mom. She had refused to eat in a tub, so, at this time, she was separate from the other snakes in a 20gal long that was entirely blacked out, insulated, and had foil on the top. I switched her normal substrate of paper towels to a mix of sphagnum moss on the warm end, cypress on the cool end. The pad ran ~87 F and she laid at one end of it. Ambient temps ranged quite low, down into the 70s at least. Following the advice of Quiet Tempest in the MI sticky, I was tried to maintain a humidity inside her cage of ~77%. If the program is running correctly, the female will coil the eggs and slow the loss of humidity. I never, ever, applied water directly around the nest. When I added water, I gave a gentle spritz to the opposite end of the cage, where her water bowl was.

I did not offer Dahlia food. I know this snake, so I didn't even bother. Because my temp/hygro were on a prob, I was able to keep tabs on the baseline stuff without harassing her and left her to do her thing as much as possible, checking in on her visually late in the day, even skipping a few days during the middle of the incubation. I changed her water every 3 days, although I saw no indication that she passed urates. She did not defecate.

Pipping occurred naturally ~Day 63, only a day or two later than what I get in the incubator. There were 8 eggs. One egg died at the end of incubation -- it was underneath the others and later. The bacteria that show up whenever a egg opens colonized the outside of the shell and appeared to have gotten inside, killing the baby. All other babies hatched successfully and ate quickly. Dahlia assumed the "where's my rat?" position as most of her babies left their eggs. Interestingly, she attempted to nudge the first two babies to emerge back into the pile, using the same motions as a mother snake rolling her eggs into a pile.

I don't seem to have had a thread on the in-progress -- this, though, is on the results:
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...062-MI-Piggage!

I moved Dahlia into a V-70 tub as soon as the first 6 babies were out of her cage. I did not offer her food that night, but I broke out a weanling rat for her the next night and she took it aggressively. I offered her food on the normal schedule and even so, she put weight back on beautifully. I'm not comfortably breeding my personal females yearly anyway, so, no rush for me there.

That's all I can recall of the top of my head. If I had the notes in front of me, I might be able to give more details, but those are the main points. It was very neat process and I got to watch a responsible snake do something innate, albeit in a less-than-natural situation. I will certainly do it again, and definitely with Dahlia when I decide to pair her again.