Substrate...blah...

[Sauzo]

Does it matter if it says "kiln dried" or would any ole' pine will do?

I will admit that I've avoided pine simply because of people saying that it is toxic etc. Since a lot on this forum have used it for decades I think it must be safe for snakes. Do you know if it is only snakes or is pine safe for other reptiles as well?

Also, all the pine I find in these parts available in bulk are huge pieces, meant for horses. I wonder if that is ok or not?

You want kiln dried as that dries out all the oils in the pine which is what is harmful to reptiles. As for larger pieces, I would imagine it would be fine but I'm not sure how much babies would enjoy it, really just depends how big it actually is. If its like the size of small animal bedding which is more or less larger shavings, then it should be fine but if it is actually chunks of wood like if you were cutting a tree down with an axe, I would probably skip that size stuff. I personally would just stick to aspen as that stuff is easy to find and most of it is in small animal size shavings or double milled reptile grade.

[hungba]

I don't know how big you mean by chunks of wood when chopping a tree, wouldn't that be the entire tree?

Specifically, I can get this, top one large flakes:

http://www.suncoastbedding.com/sunco...ducts-for-sale

It says their bedding is "heat treated" not sure if that means "kiln dried", but then they say "fresh pine scent"...

[kitedemon]

OP you might want to look at lab grade bedding. It typically is blown and is not very dusty as it needs to meet very high standards. it costs more as well. Nepco makes an aspen,pine,and a paper bedding (it is dusty). Harlan also makes pine, aspen beddings, as does native earth. I am sure there are others but I have not used them nor researched more these are the ones I know of.

Kiln dried pine is best pine that is raw often has bark and is sticky, it is stupid messy as the chips glue to everything they touch and you cannot get the sap off with out harsh solvents. It is completely not acceptable due to the potential risks involved.

Papers are fine but IMO paper towel especially domestic paper towels (blue shop towels I am on the fence with) are the only substrate that have, with no doubt, killed snakes. I see no advantage that over comes the risk associated with them to make the small risk worth it. The big breeders I know won't touch the stuff. Too expensive for a large collection coco coir at least in my area is impossible to beat for cost, if you can store a bail of it.

[MarkS]

I prefer to use bogus paper currently. (recycled product like extra thick newspaper)

For a more natural wood product I like to use Cypress mulch . Get the natural non-dyed stuff that is pure cypress, not a blend.

The crypress mulch does hold moisture better but can still get kind of dirty. I'm not sure there is such a thing as a 'perfect' substrate.

[JoshSloane]

Oh please kitedemon, now it's just obvious you're following me around the forum detracting from anything I say. The odds of ingesting a paper towel by a snake are extremely low. Yes it has happened but animals ingest other substrates and become impacted all the time. Shredded substrates just create a breeding ground for disease and excreted material that isn't seen and not cleaned up properly. Get a life and find something other to do than debate what I have to say.

[MarkS]

Lets play nice now. Everybody has a right to their opinion. I've personally been using paper towels for my hatchlings (thousands of them by now) for many many years and have never had any problems what so ever. But that's just MY experience. Others have different experiences and it's valuable to hear other viewpoints as well. I'd much rather hear an opposing view point from someone else's personal experience than from what they just heard elsewhere on the internet.

I've personally had hatchlings die from impaction by injesting the sand substrate that I was using at the time. Again, this is very rare, but it HAS happened to me and I'll make sure to tell others about it if they are considering using sand as a substrate.

[kitedemon]

I have on 4 occasions seen a snake go to a vet to remove paper towel injestion. It is often fatal. I mention it because I have personally seen issues more than once yes very very low chances. Everyone must weigh risk over advantage and I see no advantage to the animal at all. I am left with only risk with no gain, IMO that makes it pointless. I have also had impacted snakes as well never heard of one to die from any of the mentioned substrates. In my experience is even a lower possibility, of the mentioned substrates I could be one of the few people here whom has had an impacted snake (confirmed) there are lots whom believe it to be a myth. Administering a stool softener with a tube is very different than surgery.

Don't flatter yourself, JoshSloane, I rarely look at who posts what, I just respond to what I see. I pointed out the dangers and leave people to make their own decisions. The only advantage is to the keeper not the animal.

[Sauzo]

I don't know how big you mean by chunks of wood when chopping a tree, wouldn't that be the entire tree?

Specifically, I can get this, top one large flakes:

http://www.suncoastbedding.com/sunco...ducts-for-sale

It says their bedding is "heat treated" not sure if that means "kiln dried", but then they say "fresh pine scent"...

By big chunks, I guess I should rephrase it, I mean big shavings along with some actual chunks in it. As for heat treated, I think that just means it has been heated to kill any critters. I personally wouldn't chance any pine unless it specifically says "kiln dried" as the cost saved isn't worth the risk to your animals.

[kitedemon]

By big chunks, I guess I should rephrase it, I mean big shavings along with some actual chunks in it. As for heat treated, I think that just means it has been heated to kill any critters. I personally wouldn't chance any pine unless it specifically says "kiln dried" as the cost saved isn't worth the risk to your animals.

I always err on the side of caution. I would rather take a bit more time, spend a bit more, or be inconvenienced to increase a safety margin. I do quite firmly believe that kiln dried pine is fine and that the heat required to kill insect eggs is enough to bake out the pine oils in the material. I would accept for mine any heat treated pine.