The Live vs F/T debate

[Lizardlicks]

Who came up with F/T anyway? Live is the way nature made it.......seems like F/ T came about to be more convenient. I'm sure a freezer full of rats is a lot easier to care for than my colony of rats are. I could care less how other people feed, I perfer live. I'm certainly not going to judge people for the way they feed....

In nature snakes are ALSO predated, being eaten by birds, large mammals, and even other snakes. I don't see you keeping a hyena around the house to make it more "natural" though. That's the whole point of keeping pets; we are removing them from nature, and fitting them into our domestic lives for our pleasure. This brings some benefit for the animals such as protection from diseases (and treatment if they do catch one), protection from being eaten, or injured, and provided food on a regular basis so they don't starve. There are many valid reasons to feed live, anything from cost to making sure fussy feeders keep eating. Feeding live because it's "more natural" though? Kind of a pretty dumb one that isn't very fully thought out.

[Snake Judy]

So we all know feed lots are terrible and that we really shouldn't cram livestock stomachs with corn...
We milk cows to the point that their utters (that’s breast, so the moms know how a baby can feel, imagine what a machine pumping away for hours feels like) bleed and puss and consumers end up drinking a lot of this.
We mass produce turkeys and slaughter them for thanksgiving. We mass produce chickens and slaughter them year-round. Both these fouls live in cramped, disease/bacteria ridden 'barns'.
Koreans eat dogs, cramming them into tiny cages, while they're dragged to slaughter.

But we're the villains feeding precious rodent to vile snakes.

Next time you're eating that burger, steak, holiday dinner, please remind yourself how cruel you are for supporting these practices.

Not for the kiddos
https://www.google.com/search?q=slau...ell=1&imgdii=_
https://www.google.com/search?q=kore...q=chicken+farm
https://www.google.com/search?q=kore...=1849&bih=1019

NONE of my feedings ever result in any of what happens to YOUR (human) FOOD. Please tell me again how cruel it is to feed my pampered mouse colony off to my snake. Yes they even have a wheel!

I feel like the people with the strongest stance against feeding live are probably also either vegetarian, or at least concerned with the welfare of the animals they eat and search out more ethical sources. Or I'd hope so at least. So your point of "you think this is bad? well here are some other things that are bad!" is not a very effective one.

It does, however, highlight the point I brought up earlier, which is that the way the animals are kept and treated while they are alive is a thousand times more relevant than how they are dispatched, since that part is very quick either way. I have seen some rodent breeding operations where half a dozen or more adult rats are kept together in a poorly ventilated ten gallon tank or tub and fed nothing but those corn by-product "rat pellets." That should be far more concerning than people feeding live. From browsing that area of the forum, I get the impression that most rodent breeders on here have more ethical set-ups, but I have to wonder if that's the majority.

[SCWood]

All I've ever done is feed Demi, my Ball Python, live mice. I think its cruel that people would heat up dead mice! She has never skipped a meal. She eats every Monday. Right on time.

Lol I never thought either way was cruel because I was taught to respect life in all it's forms. Not saying it's definitely not weird and sometimes it still throws me off a bit but I just find it easier than live partly because if they don't eat it, there's a 50/50 chance someone else will or it can be refrozen! I am always grateful for what I have for myself and my babies, so if I take on live mice for feeding, I talk to them the whole ride home and give them tidbits of crackers or carrots and then I make sure they go quickly...meaning if my snake wants to play games and just scare them, I remove them quickly. It sounds odd and seems morbid, but I feel like all walks of life need to be treated humanely but also I understand the circle of life and what I need to do to keep it going.

1.2 Normal
1.1 Red-tail
0.1 Albino corn

[Bloody Holly]

As long as the snake is under supervision, I don't see the problem feeding a snake a live mouse. Either way, the mouse is always going to end up being eaten.

[Lizardlicks]

Lol I never thought either way was cruel because I was taught to respect life in all it's forms. Not saying it's definitely not weird and sometimes it still throws me off a bit but I just find it easier than live partly because if they don't eat it, there's a 50/50 chance someone else will or it can be refrozen! I am always grateful for what I have for myself and my babies, so if I take on live mice for feeding, I talk to them the whole ride home and give them tidbits of crackers or carrots and then I make sure they go quickly...meaning if my snake wants to play games and just scare them, I remove them quickly. It sounds odd and seems morbid, but I feel like all walks of life need to be treated humanely but also I understand the circle of life and what I need to do to keep it going.

1.2 Normal
1.1 Red-tail
0.1 Albino corn

Nope, that's a perfectly good way to look at it. Feeders are still living creatures that can experience fear and pain. Just because it's going to be fed off, doesn't mean it doesn't deserve to be treated with kindness and respect up to the moment of death.

[Daigga]

I feel like the people with the strongest stance against feeding live are probably also either vegetarian, or at least concerned with the welfare of the animals they eat and search out more ethical sources. Or I'd hope so at least. So your point of "you think this is bad? well here are some other things that are bad!" is not a very effective one.

It does, however, highlight the point I brought up earlier, which is that the way the animals are kept and treated while they are alive is a thousand times more relevant than how they are dispatched, since that part is very quick either way. I have seen some rodent breeding operations where half a dozen or more adult rats are kept together in a poorly ventilated ten gallon tank or tub and fed nothing but those corn by-product "rat pellets." That should be far more concerning than people feeding live. From browsing that area of the forum, I get the impression that most rodent breeders on here have more ethical set-ups, but I have to wonder if that's the majority.

The good news is setups like what you described don't last long at all. One of the first things you are warned about housing multiple rats together is that if adequate space and food are not provided, they are not above eating their cage mates. Rodent breeding can be tricky if for no other reason than any issue at all will result in cannibalization in a heart beat. I once lost an entire litter of pups because I didn't realize a water nipple had failed, and that was only for a few days. Lesson learned and I check all my plumbing daily now, but it goes to show you that the minimums absolutely have to be met for any measure of success to be achieved. Throwing half a dozen or more fully grown rats in a 10 gallon tank with less than ideal food is a quick way to end up with 2 or 3 very questionably fed rats.

[Jhill001]

In nature snakes are ALSO predated, being eaten by birds, large mammals, and even other snakes. I don't see you keeping a hyena around the house to make it more "natural" though. That's the whole point of keeping pets; we are removing them from nature, and fitting them into our domestic lives for our pleasure. This brings some benefit for the animals such as protection from diseases (and treatment if they do catch one), protection from being eaten, or injured, and provided food on a regular basis so they don't starve. There are many valid reasons to feed live, anything from cost to making sure fussy feeders keep eating. Feeding live because it's "more natural" though? Kind of a pretty dumb one that isn't very fully thought out.

You don't know my life.

[MarkS]

I know that wolves hunt and eat deer so I thought I'd feed a live deer to my dog because I figured it would be more 'natural'. My chihuahua just hid underneath the car while the deer made a mess of my garage. It turned out to be a bad idea all around...

[the I-Many]

Wow. You talked to a mod like this and called her baby doll, talk about disrespect. This entire thread has just become ridiculous. I do feed exclusively feed f/t but there are times when my snakes don't want f/t so I can and WILL feed live. There are people on here who have been raising snakes for a very long time and they feed live because it just works for them and some people don't have the time to thaw out feeders.

You are being very cruel and sadistic when you kill a feeder rat by whacking it against an object and Deborah is correct, you really have no business owning snakes. Heaven forbid you should have to take care of one of your snakes that has suddenly fallen ill, there is no telling how you would remedy such an issue. Would you whack that poor snake too instead of getting it the necessary treatment?!!

Sorry baby cakes. love and kisses

[MS2]

In nature snakes are ALSO predated, being eaten by birds, large mammals, and even other snakes. I don't see you keeping a hyena around the house to make it more "natural" though. That's the whole point of keeping pets; we are removing them from nature, and fitting them into our domestic lives for our pleasure. This brings some benefit for the animals such as protection from diseases (and treatment if they do catch one), protection from being eaten, or injured, and provided food on a regular basis so they don't starve. There are many valid reasons to feed live, anything from cost to making sure fussy feeders keep eating. Feeding live because it's "more natural" though? Kind of a pretty dumb one that isn't very fully thought out.

I did not say it was a "more natural" way, I said that is the way NATURE made it. Read a little further next time.....and I don't know if hyenas are in the same part of Africa, but I am pretty dumb and don't fully think things out.

And how do you know what animals I keep? I could have a lion or two