Pine bedding?

[200xth]

Best of all I don't have to get into an argument where both sides are armed with exactly no evidence.

There's two people on this forum alone with a combined 60 years of snake keeping between them who have successfully kept hundreds (if not thousands) of snakes on pine bedding for decades.

That by itself would seem like evidence to me that pine bedding is not bad for snakes and can be used successfully without issue.

[nightrainfalls]

There's two people on this forum alone with a combined 60 years of snake keeping between them who have successfully kept hundreds (if not thousands) of snakes on pine bedding for decades.

That by itself would seem like evidence to me that pine bedding is not bad for snakes and can be used successfully without issue.

And a mirage seems like water. Let me give you an example. This is completely made up, so don't take anything I about to say as fact. This is just a story for illustrative purposes.

Let us imagine a breeder who keeps Red Swoosh Snakes. These are a rare and coveted species that are prone to liver failure. He has been keeping them for years on pine bedding. Another breeder also keeps Red Swoosh Snakes and insists they should not be kept on pine bedding. Our first breeder explains he has been keeping red Swoosh Snakes for decades and has never had a problem with the pine bedding. In fact whenever the first breeder looses a snake, he takes it to the vet for a necrposy. The result is always the same. Death due to liver failure. Now let us take for granted that pine bedding is actually detrimental to Red Swoosh Snakes. Further more let us understand that Red swoosh snakes typically live for 30-40 years. In this case we will let the pine contribute to liver failure in 2% of cases. Liver failure typically occurs after thirty years. Our first breeder has kept four hundred snakes. Of those four hundred snakes, 8 have died prematurely from being kept on pine bedding. That means that 392 snakes have not been fatally injured. In order to discover this small effect, we would have to track thousands of snakes kept in exactly the same husbandry but different substrates for decades. This would be an expensive study in a long lived species like Red Swoosh Snakes.

End of story.

In short all the keepers on this forum who have kept more than a few snakes for more than a few years have suffered losses. Snakes are cryptic animals and seemingly healthy animals just die sometimes. Even with a necropsy we may not find out why. If the toxicity of pine bedding is low, the signal could easily be missed. Of course it is also possible that there is no signal to be missed.

So actually no side in this argument has much evidence.

The pine is poison people have studies in mammals that they would like to extend to reptiles. Extrapolating from one related species to another is an iffy proposition, but we aren't even in the same class here. We also have the problem that the rodent studies only hint at the possibility of toxicity. There are some changes in liver enzymes, but this may or may not be detrimental at all. We only found it because it skewed some pharmacological studies.

No one really cares if lab rats will develop liver cancer and die, since they are all going to be killed and autopsied anyway. All the researchers care about is whether or not their results are invalidated by the bedding. Cruel yes. Scientists are cruel. Believe me, I used to be one.

David

[200xth]

So essentially you're saying there is no evidence of any kind that anything is successful in keeping snakes?

Hotspots of 90, keeping in tubs, aspen, paper towels....we don't actually know that any of these are not detrimental to our snakes. Or at least there is no evidence these things are not killing our snakes.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

So essentially you're saying there is no evidence of any kind that anything is successful in keeping snakes?

Hotspots of 90, keeping in tubs, aspen, paper towels....we don't actually know that any of these are not detrimental to our snakes. Or at least there is no evidence these things are not killing our snakes.

Sounds like it, which means decades of hands on experience means NOTHING unless you're a scientist or a vet tech

But hey what do I know I am one to think pine is OK and BP can be kept at room temp with no hot spot

[Marrissa]

Hmmm. So anyone use Eco flakes for their snake collection? I like the smaller pieces and fluffiness. It'd be nice to use the same bedding for rodents and snakes.

[MarkS]

Hmmm. So anyone use Eco flakes for their snake collection? I like the smaller pieces and fluffiness. It'd be nice to use the same bedding for rodents and snakes.

What are eco flakes made of? Pine is fine as years and years of experience has proven, but that doesn't mean that all wood products are okay. I have first hand experience proving that cedar is dangerous to snakes.

[kitedemon]

There have been over the years a number of poor keeping practices. Tanks so wet they would from mushrooms for example. nightrainfalls has a point just because a few keepers have been doing the same thing for a long time doesn't mean it is the best option.

However there is a of weight of evidence. In this case I believe that there are enough keepers with enough animals and enough time to say that a high quality pine bedding is likely fine and will have no issues.

The simple truth is clear, there are too many diligent successful breeders using pine bedding for too long to say that there is an major issue. It maybe discovered that there is some odd connection between phenols and some undiscovered mystery disease. Currently there is no proof of anything.

There are so many phenol containing products that are almost certain to have more phenol levels than pine. Chemically extracted and refined phenols are in tons of things. Perhaps they should be of greater concern.

[Sonny1318]

Just courius, isn't average room tempature like 73.4 degrees? Or do you mean heating the whole room to a more species friendly tempature?

[Skiploder]

What are eco flakes made of? Pine is fine as years and years of experience has proven, but that doesn't mean that all wood products are okay. I have first hand experience proving that cedar is dangerous to snakes.

I think Eco Flake is a pine bedding mix (dried) from AWF. I've used it. It's a lot like aspen Sani-Chips in terms on consistency.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Just courius, isn't average room tempature like 73.4 degrees? Or do you mean heating the whole room to a more species friendly tempature?

Since I don't want to clean up another derailed thread you can discuss this here and see what I have already posted http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...plemental-heat