Genetics....

[TessadasExotics]

Using this logic makes every ball python morph a het. There are so many expert geneticist in this community that only make things more convoluted with their misinformation.

[OhhWatALoser]

Using this logic makes every ball python morph a het. There are so many expert geneticist in this community that only make things more convoluted with their misinformation.

That or homozygous, do we really have to refer you to this thread? http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...Basic-Genetics

Heterozygous (Het) – An unmatched pair of alleles at any given locus…this term is usually reserved for recessive traits that do not show up even though one gene is present.

while the lingo might only use it for recessive it doesn't change the fact that every gene is going to have a het and homo form, the classification doesn't matter. A classification comes from phenotype of the animal in het and homo form.

well maybe i shouldn't say every gene, unless something physically happens to stop the homozygous form, desert females not being able to lay a viable clutch stops the homozygous desert.

The irony of you condescendingly using words such as logic and misinformation

[TessadasExotics]

Never ceases to amaze me. Ignorance that thinks everyone else is ignorant. Trust me I know more about genetics than you do.
Your claim to fame is having someone put together some code to remake someone elses work into your work.
You are a cool dude though.... seriously.
Hope the rest of your life is just as appealing as your knowledge and attitude.

[OhhWatALoser]

Never ceases to amaze me. Ignorance that thinks everyone else is ignorant. Trust me I know more about genetics than you do.
Your claim to fame is having someone put together some code to remake someone elses work into your work.
You are a cool dude though.... seriously.
Hope the rest of your life is just as appealing as your knowledge and attitude.

Tess your game is always the same, call everyone else stupid but when it comes to actually producing something for your claims you fail nearly every time. If you know so much, why don't you actually try to help others learn, I've called you out to show your vast knowledge multiple times, but again failure nearly every time. Apparently your idea of showing your vast knowledge is posting links and telling people they are stupid if they can't figure it out. This community is supposed to be about helping people, yet you seem stuck on trying to put yourself on top of everyone else. If your comments make no sense yes I am going to rain on your parade especially when you still act so condescending after years of this.

I'm not saying I'm perfect and might even have a snarky comment once in a while. I also know that there are quite a few individuals that know much more than me in this hobby, some in this very thread. Some of them work in the genetics field for a living. What I know is thanks to them. However they are able to make claims and back them up with some sort of evidence and be able to explain it, you know help the community. Even look at your most recent comment, what kind of contribution is that? A claim with no explanation and an insult, same song and dance.

Yep thats all that genetic calc is, a copy of WoBP. After the initial release who has been copying who? lol Can't really make me feel bad about that. btw what's your claim to fame tess? If you must know I consider the rest of my life pretty great. You can't make me feel bad about that either.

[se7en]

Never ceases to amaze me. Ignorance that thinks everyone else is ignorant. Trust me I know more about genetics than you do.
Your claim to fame is having someone put together some code to remake someone elses work into your work.
You are a cool dude though.... seriously.
Hope the rest of your life is just as appealing as your knowledge and attitude.

I read a Michael Crichton book once.

[jdhutton2000]

So in further research... Candy (or toffee) gene throws the ball python terms out the window and can only be understood in real genetics... Toffe = Recessive gene ; Albino = Recessive gene; Het albino x Het Toffee = Toffino. Toffino is a Visual of a recessive gene that are distinctly different. In ball python terminology it doesn't make since, but understanding Alleles/Locus/phenotypes/Genotypes is the only way that makes since. Toffee and Albino reside in same locus and their alleles match making them allelic. Albino to Toffino will result in 50% Albino 50% Toffino.

[paulh]

So in further research... Candy (or toffee) gene throws the ball python terms out the window and can only be understood in real genetics... Toffe = Recessive gene ; Albino = Recessive gene; Het albino x Het Toffee = Toffino. Toffino is a Visual of a recessive gene that are distinctly different. In ball python terminology it doesn't make since, but understanding Alleles/Locus/phenotypes/Genotypes is the only way that makes since. Toffee and Albino reside in same locus and their alleles match making them allelic. Albino to Toffino will result in 50% Albino 50% Toffino.

The definition of "het" has gotten so far off the standard genetics definition that I have to specify the two genes in a gene pair to be sure I am understood. For example, "Het albino x Het Toffee = Toffino". Some people use the "x" character to mean "mated to" or "crossed with". Other people use the "x" character to mean "and". So, does "Het albino x Het Toffee" mean a ball python with a normal gene paired with an albino gene mated to a ball python with a normal gene paired with a toffee gene? Or does it mean a gene pair made up of an albino gene and a toffee gene?

By the way, jdhutton2000 is using the term allele correctly. The definition at www.dictionary.reference.com is "any of two or more variants of a gene that have the same relative position on homologous chromosomes and are responsible for alternative characteristics, such as smooth or wrinkled seeds in peas." Every genetics text I've seen gives the same definition in more or less similar words.

[jdhutton2000]

@paul Yeah that's what I mean when I say het Albino x het Toffee I am saying that Na x Nt = "at" which is a visual recessive gene Toffino. Kinda opened my eyes cause I naively thought all recessives required a homozygous for to show, and didn't even occur to me that recessive genes could behave the same as our co-dom/incomplete dominate (visual heterozygous) genes. So today was a breakthrough! Now to start a recessive project to find Allelic recessive genes out! LoL

[Family Jewels]

does "Het albino x Het Toffee" mean a ball python with a normal gene paired with an albino gene mated to a ball python with a normal gene paired with a toffee gene? Or does it mean a gene pair made up of an albino gene and a toffee gene?

I've always used (and seen it used) to indicate a breeding. So a het albino X het toffee would produce a 1:3 phenotypic ratio of toffinos and normals (66% poss het for either albino or toffee). However it sometimes depends on context.

NERD actually stumbled on a very convenient genetic term to describe what we're seeing when two "compatible" mutant allelic traits combine to produce a unique phenotype: Compound heterozygous.http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ind...cts-like-super

NERD lists all of the following as compound heterozygous:http://www.newenglandreptile.com/ind...uper-balls/als

As you can see, the definition fits perfectly with the Toffino / Candino phenomenon... as well as several others that have created difficulties for ball python terminology.

For example:
Gg = gravel (dominant gene/ heterozygous)
Yy = yellowbelly (dominant gene/ heterozygous)
GY = highway (compound heterozygous)

Tt = het toffee (recessive gene/ heterozygous)
Aa = het albino (recessive gene/ heterozygous)
ta = Toffino (compound heterozygous)

[paulh]

@paul Yeah that's what I mean when I say het Albino x het Toffee I am saying that Na x Nt = "at" which is a visual recessive gene Toffino. Kinda opened my eyes cause I naively thought all recessives required a homozygous for to show, and didn't even occur to me that recessive genes could behave the same as our co-dom/incomplete dominate (visual heterozygous) genes. So today was a breakthrough! Now to start a recessive project to find Allelic recessive genes out! LoL

Toffino is not a gene. Toffino is the appearance of a ball python that has a gene pair made up of a toffee gene and an albino gene. The identy of the genes and the identity of the snake's appearance are two different things. Another example of this is a ball python with a mojave gene paired with a lesser gene. The appearance of such a snake is blue-eyed leucistic.

If toffino was a gene, then toffino snakes would be able to breed true. But toffino mated to toffino always produces albino, toffino, and toffee snakes.

I looked up compound heterozygous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_heterozygosity I am not too happy about using the term. Mostly because it is another piece of jargon for newbies to learn and misuse. NERD is expanding the meaning to any gene pair in which the two genes are not the same and neither gene is a normal gene. Which leads to confusion with visual het -- any gene pair in which the two genes are not the same and the creature does not look normal. IMO, it is easier to simply identify a gene pair by the genes -- lesser/mojave, normal/albino, albino/albino, normal/normal, etc.

I like the gene symbol system at http://www.informatics.jax.org/mgihome/nomen/gene.shtml (See sections 2.3 and 3.1 in particular.) The mouse geneticists have answered nomenclature questions than herper geneticists haven't imagined yet.

Gene pairs with two different genes that are both recessive to the normal gene have already turned up in several species of snakes -- reticulated pythons, corn snakes, boa constrictor, and others. There are hundreds of them in the lab mouse. I have no doubt that more will be found in snakes, eventually.