How soon after a regurgitation can I handle my snake?

[DVirginiana]

Okay, but is this scientifically proven? How do you know this? I don't just want an answer, I want reasoning behind it. If anybody has a link to a website or article about this subject that would be helpful.


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I notice you ignore the comment about whether or not you actually intend to handle the snake...

The thing is you don't know exactly what does and does not stress a snake unless you're Voldemort.

HOWEVER; animals have seeking behaviors they display when their needs are not being met. This can be hunting, looking for a hiding spot, ect. Any behavior that meets the animal's needs. If the need is not being met, it will seek it out. When a BP has all its needs met (including safety) it will stay hidden in one spot until it gets hungry (need not met).
Being handled by a human is something that stresses snakes because it removes one of those basic needs; the need for somewhere to hide from predators. This is why your snake will typically move around while you handle it rather than just curling up and going to sleep. Sometimes it will ball up which is also a defensive reaction.
The reason you want to avoid this after a regurge is because you don't KNOW exactly when the snake has stopped being stressed by the event, and it is far better to overshoot than undershoot and end up causing more problems by adding stress.

That, and it's common sense that being handled by a giant monster is stressful to something with the mental capabilities of a snake.

Seeking behavior is a common-knowledge sort of thing with far too many scientific articles to sift through, so rather than giving you a scientific article I'll just say that Temple Grandin's "Animals Make Us Human" is an excellent casual read on the subject.

[DVirginiana]

Oh and btw, yes it was 30 minutes. I know some are against handling for long amounts of time, but this is our usual handling session. He's an extremely relaxed snake. With lots of research I have concluded that as long as the snake does not seem stressed or agitated, I can handle him for as long and as much as I want. When I do handle him he usually explores a bit and then settles down for a nap either on my lap, my chest or wrapped around my arm.


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What research? I would like to see the articles. Not trying to copy-cat or make fun of your earlier posts, but it seems like you're holding everyone else's information (most of which is borne from experience, not reading articles) to a different standard than your own...

Also... Regurging IS A STRESS BEHAVIOR.

[The Snakery]

Boy you could argue with a lamp post. ;-)

1. Stop being concerned about what you want and put your snake's needs first
2. Ball pythons get super stressed easily, especially when being handled. Not seeing a reason for it to stress him (from your POV) doesn't make it any less stressful.
3. Regurgitation so closely related to your time of and length of handling is all the proof you should need.
4. You have people with far more experience than you can shake a stick at giving you advice. It isn't looking like it is what you want to hear.
5. Rephrasing your question 100 ways doesn't make the answer change. ;-)

Leave him be for a week to allow for gut flora and such to stabilize. Offer food. If he refuses to eat then try again in a week and do NOT handle him. If he eats, leave him alone for a week and feed again. Once he is consistently eating again, you can try handling but start with no more than 5mins at a time. You are the great bringer of food but you are also a giant snake eating monster to such a little guy.

Good luck with your guy.

[LivingwithBalls]

I notice you ignore the comment about whether or not you actually intend to handle the snake...

The thing is you don't know exactly what does and does not stress a snake unless you're Voldemort.

HOWEVER; animals have seeking behaviors they display when their needs are not being met. This can be hunting, looking for a hiding spot, ect. Any behavior that meets the animal's needs. If the need is not being met, it will seek it out. When a BP has all its needs met (including safety) it will stay hidden in one spot until it gets hungry (need not met).
Being handled by a human is something that stresses snakes because it removes one of those basic needs; the need for somewhere to hide from predators. This is why your snake will typically move around while you handle it rather than just curling up and going to sleep. Sometimes it will ball up which is also a defensive reaction.
The reason you want to avoid this after a regurge is because you don't KNOW exactly when the snake has stopped being stressed by the event, and it is far better to overshoot than undershoot and end up causing more problems by adding stress.

That, and it's common sense that being handled by a giant monster is stressful to something with the mental capabilities of a snake.

Seeking behavior is a common-knowledge sort of thing with far too many scientific articles to sift through, so rather than giving you a scientific article I'll just say that Temple Grandin's "Animals Make Us Human" is an excellent casual read on the subject.

Sorry I didn't know it was necessary that I reply to that comment. Of course I would like to handle him, but I have not been and don't plan to.

He rarely moves around when I handle him, other than to find a good spot to sleep. I can honestly say he has never balled up while I handle him, unless he's in blue( I don't typically handle him during this time unless necessary btw).

May I ask what the mental capabilities of a snake are? Apparently nobody knows what snakes think, so how do you know he sees me as a "giant monster?" I mean for all we know they could be as intelligent as a dog or as dumb as a clam.

Thanks for the book title.


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[LivingwithBalls]

What research? I would like to see the articles. Not trying to copy-cat or make fun of your earlier posts, but it seems like you're holding everyone else's information (most of which is borne from experience, not reading articles) to a different standard than your own...

Also... Regurging IS A STRESS BEHAVIOR.

Ok, Here's a few knowledgeable websites I like to use and I will get more for you in a bit:
Strictlyballs.ca
Reptileknowledge.com
Anaspid.org


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[Borgpython]

Well you seem to be more of an expert than people who have more experience dealing with bp's so why do you even bother coming for advice honestly and not even take the advice given to you?
Advice you clearly need when you yourself admittedly say you dont have much knowledge on the matter.

Its not that we are annoyed dont get me wrong, we just dont know what else to say mate. We have told you a number of reasons/answers to your questions but instead you just choose to challenge them, even going so far to wanting scientific proof.
These answers you are getting are passed down knowledge from professional breeders who have been dealing with bp's for many years, they are the science. They have studied through experience the behaviour pattern of such snakes for many years, so why question that? You are not getting another answer from here trust me, we all follow the advices/practices given by the professionals who know what they doing. You think they quess that you need to leave your snake alone for 2 weeks before handling it after a regurgitation? no they know this through experience.

We are only trying to help and educate you on the matter mate, simple as that. Now if you choose to not follow such advices given then I must say you're gambling with your snakes life because you choose to go for what you think is right and ignore practice done by professional breeders. If that is the case we cant stop you, but its your snakes life on your hands man.

But again to clear things out.
-After a regurgitation it is advised not to handle your bp for at least 2 weeks. You may ask why, well this is advice older breeders tell us in the caresheets. Its because the snake after regurgitating will feel stressed and ill due to stomach acids left in the stomach not digesting anything, this causes them to grow weak as well and possibly go on a hunger strike for months if they dont calm down, this is why its is imperative that you let your snake calm down after a regurgitation. How do they know its 2 weeks at least? well trial and error, many breeders before probably handled their snake in less time than that after regurgitation and ended up badly, and have concluded that 2 weeks minimum is at least needed for no negative results. This is completely spelt out for you here, I hope you get the point.

How long should a bp be handled?
Bp's are easily stressed out, even though they may not seem stressed out, most of the time they are, 90 percent of the time they want to stay hidden and feel secure. People who buy them for display or lots of handling, bought the wrong type of pet. The less you handle them the more clam they will be, though don't get me wrong, it is advised to handle your bp once a day at least to familiarize yourself to it and have it be used to being handled, though only for a certain period of time a day is good for the snake, longer and the snake might get too stressed, on top of that probably not meeting its humidity and temp needs while out of the enclosure. 15 minutes max is advised, any longer and you're just stressing the snake out. Again how do we know this?, from experience and knowledge passed down by people who have dealt with bp's for many years.

You say you dont have the "need" to handle your bp, then it should be easy to leave him alone for 2 weeks for it to calm down.
Seriously nobody is here to start a debate on whats right or wrong method of doing things. We simply care about the health and well being of your bp. And if you do as well, please stop being so arrogant about it and just follow the advise given by people who know what they are dealing with.

[DVirginiana]

Sorry I didn't know it was necessary that I reply to that comment. Of course I would like to handle him, but I have not been and don't plan to.

He rarely moves around when I handle him, other than to find a good spot to sleep. I can honestly say he has never balled up while I handle him, unless he's in blue( I don't typically handle him during this time unless necessary btw).

May I ask what the mental capabilities of a snake are? Apparently nobody knows what snakes think, so how do you know he sees me as a "giant monster?" I mean for all we know they could be as intelligent as a dog or as dumb as a clam.

Thanks for the book title.


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It's not necessary for you to reply to anything, but until this post you sounded like you had the intention of ignoring everyone's advice, hence the snippy responses. You were curious as to why people were getting short with you, and that's why.

I don't know my snakes think of me as a big scary monster. I do know that she displays stress behaviors such as searching when I handle her.

Actually we do know they are less intelligent than a dog and more intelligent than a clam. There are different types of learning and memory that define what we typically think of as intelligence.
The clam displays only what we call basic Hebbian Principle-- the ability to form an unconscious association between two unrelated stimuli. Even flatworms can do this, and they lack brains only having diffuse neural ganglia.
The dog displays long-term memory and object permanence. A dog's conscious behavior will change after being in a situation to manipulate a desired outcome such as getting a treat. They also display knowledge that something exists even when it isn't in their direct line of sight (the towel test).

The snake falls somewhere between these. While they can certainly form Hebbian associations and consciously modify their behavior based on short-term memories and perceptions, they lack object permanence (mine can't even grasp that a mouse's head still exists when she is looking for it and is laying on it)

I'm seriously loving this chance to drag out all my neuro coursework knowledge!

[LivingwithBalls]

Well you seem to be more of an expert than people who have more experience dealing with bp's so why do you even bother coming for advice honestly and not even take the advice given to you?
Advice you clearly need when you yourself admittedly say you dont have much knowledge on the matter.

Its not that we are annoyed dont get me wrong, we just dont know what else to say mate. We have told you a number of reasons/answers to your questions but instead you just choose to challenge them, even going so far to wanting scientific proof.
These answers you are getting are passed down knowledge from professional breeders who have been dealing with bp's for many years, they are the science. They have studied through experience the behaviour pattern of such snakes for many years, so why question that? You are not getting another answer from here trust me, we all follow the advices/practices given by the professionals who know what they doing. You think they quess that you need to leave your snake alone for 2 weeks before handling it after a regurgitation? no they know this through experience.

We are only trying to help and educate you on the matter mate, simple as that. Now if you choose to not follow such advices given then I must say you're gambling with your snakes life because you choose to go for what you think is right and ignore practice done by professional breeders. If that is the case we cant stop you, but its your snakes life on your hands man.

But again to clear things out.
-After a regurgitation it is advised not to handle your bp for at least 2 weeks. You may ask why, well this is advice older breeders tell us in the caresheets. Its because the snake after regurgitating will feel stressed and ill due to stomach acids left in the stomach not digesting anything, this causes them to grow weak as well and possibly go on a hunger strike for months if they dont calm down, this is why its is imperative that you let your snake calm down after a regurgitation. How do they know its 2 weeks at least? well trial and error, many breeders before probably handled their snake in less time than that after regurgitation and ended up badly, and have concluded that 2 weeks minimum is at least needed for no negative results. This is completely spelt out for you here, I hope you get the point.

How long should a bp be handled?
Bp's are easily stressed out, even though they may not seem stressed out, most of the time they are, 90 percent of the time they want to stay hidden and feel secure. People who buy them for display or lots of handling, bought the wrong type of pet. The less you handle them the more clam they will be, though don't get me wrong, it is advised to handle your bp once a day at least to familiarize yourself to it and have it be used to being handled, though only for a certain period of time a day is good for the snake, longer and the snake might get too stressed, on top of that probably not meeting its humidity and temp needs while out of the enclosure. 15 minutes max is advised, any longer and you're just stressing the snake out. Again how do we know this?, from experience and knowledge passed down by people who have dealt with bp's for many years.

You say you dont have the "need" to handle your bp, then it should be easy to leave him alone for 2 weeks for it to calm down.
Seriously nobody is here to start a debate on whats right or wrong method of doing things. We simply care about the health and well being of your bp. And if you do as well, please stop being so arrogant about it and just follow the advise given by people who know what they are dealing with.

Thank you ! I'm really truly sorry if I seem arrogant or like I'm challenging others responses, I just have a hard time understanding things, especially over the Internet.

I really enjoyed reading your response, it made sense to me. You spelt it out perfectly and gave reasoning for everything I have questioned. I know handling is a commonly debated thing, some would even say handling every day is bad. I think it differs from snake to snake and others think so as well so I've found with much googling.

I am in no way trying or wanting to start arguments or be arrogant please understand this.


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[LivingwithBalls]

It's not necessary for you to reply to anything, but until this post you sounded like you had the intention of ignoring everyone's advice, hence the snippy responses. You were curious as to why people were getting short with you, and that's why.

I don't know my snakes think of me as a big scary monster. I do know that she displays stress behaviors such as searching when I handle her.

Actually we do know they are less intelligent than a dog and more intelligent than a clam. There are different types of learning and memory that define what we typically think of as intelligence.
The clam displays only what we call basic Hebbian Principle-- the ability to form an unconscious association between two unrelated stimuli. Even flatworms can do this, and they lack brains only having diffuse neural ganglia.
The dog displays long-term memory and object permanence. A dog's conscious behavior will change after being in a situation to manipulate a desired outcome such as getting a treat. They also display knowledge that something exists even when it isn't in their direct line of sight (the towel test).

The snake falls somewhere between these. While they can certainly form Hebbian associations and consciously modify their behavior based on short-term memories and perceptions, they lack object permanence (mine can't even grasp that a mouse's head still exists when she is looking for it and is laying on it)

I'm seriously loving this chance to drag out all my neuro coursework knowledge!

Again I apologize if I'm sounding snippy, by no means is that intended.

Is searching out of curiosity or fear? I would have to say it depends. If the snake is frantically trying to slither away quickly, it's probably fear. If it's slowly moving around, licking the air, periscoping, an occasional yawn, it's probably just cruising it's new surroundings. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks for the the science!


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[The Snakery]

an occasional yawn, it's probably just cruising it's new surroundings.

In species such as the dog, yawning is actually a sign of anxiety and/conflicting emotion/reasoning. Not including the wake up from a nap yawn of course.