Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons

[Skiploder]

From Meal size effects on the postprandial metabolic response of Bothrops alternatus (Serpentes: Viperidae)
Rodrigo S. B. Gavira1,2 & Denis V. Andrade1

"As the cost of meal digestion varied proportionally with the energy content of the meal, the relative cost of meal digestion (i.e., SDA coefficient) was not affected by meal size. Thus, the ingestion of a large or small prey accounted for the same relative energetic investment.

However, in absolute terms, larger prey still provides an energetic return substantially greater than smaller prey. In fact, whereas the difference in the absolute cost of digestion between G20% compared with G5% represents an additional investment of only 95 kJ.kg- 1, the absolute energy return obtained from a 20% prey is 1,257 kJ.kg-1 greater than that provided by the ingestion of a 5% prey (see Table I). Therefore, for a sit-and-wait snake species, the acquisition of a single large meal may still result in important energetic advantage compared to a small meal item, even if they have the same relative cost. Furthermore, the successful capture of a large prey item may result in important ecological advantages related to survival, growth, and allocation of time and energy to different activities (GREENE 1983).

Again, food for thought. Sit and wait snake species (female ball pythons) benefit from larger infrequent meals.

More active species, conversely do better with smaller more frequent meals.

One rule does not hold reign. What works for a female ball python may not work as well for a younger male ball python and certainly does not work for a cribo or other active hunter.

[AlexisFitzy]

I dunno! Lets do it.

I would assume we would have to address the feeding amount for hatchlings, juveniles, and once they are mature, adult females and males all separately.

Hatchlings
Juveniles
Adult Males
Adult Females

What would you consider an approximate gram weight to be for each of these groups? I assume the line between Juvies and Adults to be blurry between males and females since males are generally 'mature' at a smaller size.

Once that is figured out, we could approximate a a gram amount (or percentage) of rodent that the animal needs based on their activity levels.


This is an important topic. I haven't used the 10-15% rule in many years because I just eyeball it or feed whatever is on hand. I know I have seen many obese ball pythons. You can't just feed them every time they are hungry. Its like giving a kid as much food as they want and being confused when they get fat. I even saw one posted on the forum today, and the keeper was proud of their size. People will overfeed hoping to breed them sooner, but all that ends up happening is they slug out.

I would like to know the answer to this first before we move on to the next subject of hot spots being futile or not.

[AlexisFitzy]

Shoot I tried to edit my post but I took to long, I just read your most resent post Skip. I think all of this information is really interesting but still a little confusing when it comes to making new dietary requirements that would incorporate all of the things mentioned in this thread. Hopefully I'm not the only one that is asking themselves "Now how much should I feed my ball pythons exactly to keep them healthy?"

[Skiploder]

I would like to know the answer to this first before we move on to the next subject of hot spots being futile or not.

The hot spot has to be figured in. No hot spot = lower digestion, slower return to needing to be fed again.

We can't answer questions without making an informed decision.

For the record, I would not call hot spots futile. I would call them not necessary and completely optional.

Keep this in mind: the ball python laying in wait does not weigh it's food. It eats when hungry and it attempts to predate on animals it feels it can ingest and flees from those it can't. One month it may eat a meal 20% of it's weight and it then doesn't eat for 7 weeks when it then takes something that's 10% of it's weight.

The idea here is to disabuse people of the notion that an inactive captive snake needs a 15% of its mass prey item every week. The idea here is to get people thinking about what they need, when to give it to them and how to optimize husbandry around that energy requirement.

I can make an educated stab at Steffe's question, but I can't answer it with any surety.

What I would need is a study that shows what different ball pythons at different ages consume in the wild and the energy expended per year and the energy consumed per year. Only then could I attempt to ascribe an absolute educated answer to the question.

Alexis, there is a lot of data here. Read it, think about it and tell me only two things:

1. What and how would you feed a female ball python (adult) in a tub?
2. What and how would you feed a male ball python (adult) in a tub?

Then answer why.

[Skiploder]

Shoot I tried to edit my post but I took to long, I just read your most resent post Skip. I think all of this information is really interesting but still a little confusing when it comes to making new dietary requirements that would incorporate all of the things mentioned in this thread. Hopefully I'm not the only one that is asking themselves "Now how much should I feed my ball pythons exactly to keep them healthy?"

How much and how often?

[Eric Alan]

Eric, studies have been done on pythons with regards to seasonal changes in body temperature, which affect many biological functions - most noteworthy - digestion.

Lots of information/gibberish...

Bottom line, the longer the snake takes to digest there food, the less they need to eat.

Of course this all makes sense. In a world where common sense is closer to an oxymoron than a standard, I was under the impression that much of this was pretty straightforward information. To be honest, I'd have been surprised if the studies had found otherwise.

Which leads me to my next question. Ball pythons do not bask. They are nocturnal and den during the day, specifically seeking burrows within a specific temperature range. The question therefore is:

Why provide a basking (hot spot)?

Personally, I have never really thought of a "basking spot" in that way. I try to create/control in my captive environment a temperature range that is similar to the range found in their natural habitat (which is thankfully relatively narrow and fairly easy to replicate). Doing so, in my estimation, allows them to choose a resting spot that best fits their needs at the time. As long as the range I provide is consistent, I don't worry what side of the enclosure they may be on. They know their environmental temperature requirements at any given moment far better than I.

On a similar note, I understand that some keepers are very successful not providing that gradient and choose to maintain a more consistent ambient temperature. I, however, feel that if I did that, I may not be meeting the needs of each individual snake in my collection. Is this feeling based on any evidence? I don't know. Does it make sense to me, though, that some snakes would prefer slightly warmer or slightly cooler temperatures than other snakes to be the most comfortable they could be? Absolutely. This is why I give them the ability to choose and provide a "basking spot" in my racks.

[Jhill001]

Alexis, there is a lot of data here. Read it, think about it and tell me only two things:

1. What and how would you feed a female ball python (adult) in a tub?
2. What and how would you feed a male ball python (adult) in a tub?

Then answer why.

Side question, does a snakes activity level (active species or inactive) increase or decrease when placed into a larger than "recommended" enclosure. For example an adult male ball python gets kept in a 75 gallon decorated tank with stuff to crawl on, now let's do that with a Rosy Boa, a bull snake, a corn and a milk snake, any other 20-40gallon recommended species. Do they take advantage of the room, if so does this affect feeding needs/other husbandry things. If not, then why don't they take advantage of the space"?

Does getting your snake out to handle them increase metabolism? One would have to assume. Has anyone ever tried putting an unwilling feeder on an exercise program by taking them out and getting them moving? Literally just brain storming here. Does anyone have an exercise program for any of there herps in the interest of preventing obesity? I know of some people who give beardies a shallow bath to help with sheds, does this double as extra exercise/stimulation that can help improve husbandry?

I'm out of Doritos so I don't have the energy to talk about exercise anymore.

[Skiploder]

Of course this all makes sense. In a world where common sense is closer to an oxymoron than a standard, I was under the impression that much of this was pretty straightforward information. To be honest, I'd have been surprised if the studies had found

If it's so straightforward, then why are people over feeding their snakes? We've been dancing for five pages and no one drew that simple conclusion. Sometimes common sense and common practice are not the same.

Drymarchon bask, but many people who keep them don't provide them with basking spots.
Ball pythons don't normally bask, but many people who keep them provide them with basking spots.

We advise giving a ball python three thermoregulation zones in captivity, but in reality they by and large choose one site in the wild that changes slightly as the day progresses....then they emerge to cooler temps at night.

Ever thought that since temps and digestion go hand in hand that we are stimulating them to consume more by providing them 92 degree hot spots to lay on?

[Skiploder]

Side question, does a snakes activity level (active species or inactive) increase or decrease when placed into a larger than "recommended" enclosure. For example an adult male ball python gets kept in a 75 gallon decorated tank with stuff to crawl on, now let's do that with a Rosy Boa, a bull snake, a corn and a milk snake, any other 20-40gallon recommended species. Do they take advantage of the room, if so does this affect feeding needs/other husbandry things. If not, then why don't they take advantage of the space"?

Does getting your snake out to handle them increase metabolism? One would have to assume. Has anyone ever tried putting an unwilling feeder on an exercise program by taking them out and getting them moving? Literally just brain storming here. Does anyone have an exercise program for any of there herps in the interest of preventing obesity? I know of some people who give beardies a shallow bath to help with sheds, does this double as extra exercise/stimulation that can help improve husbandry?

I'm out of Doritos so I don't have the energy to talk about exercise anymore.

Totally dependent on species.

The natural history of a male ball pythons tells use that if given ample room and a suitable den it will den during the day and then roam at night to hunt, climb trees, seek out female ball pythons, etc. The area it has to cover to fulfill those imperatives is much greater in the wild than in a tank and better in a a tank than a tub.

Any activity increases the expenditure of energy and fuel is burned (metabolism) to meet that expenditure. Considering how affected these animals are by stress, I would suggest feeding less in favor of exercising them in some way.

I keep dispholidines in large arboreal cages and they are constantly moving. While they need to cover larger distances in the wild to find food and shelter, it certainly is better than stuffing them in a tub. Same for drys. Giver them the room and they will use it. They will use a nest or a burrow, they will bask for periods during the day and they will move around in their cages. Difference is that restlessness is an indicator of stress in ball but not in some select other species.

We have inexorably tied successful feeding into being a good keeper. We feel bad when a snake refuses food. In many cases we overfeed them not only because we don't really know their caloric needs, but also because when they eat, we feel some measure of accomplishment.

[Kaorte]

I've always told people to not stress out when their snake stopes eating. Its not as if they'll starve themselves.

In my opinion, a ball python won't take advantage of a large tank like some other species will. Once it finds a comfy spot it stays there.

1. What and how would you feed a female ball python in a tub.

Hot spot of 90. Small rat 35-50g every 2 weeks. 42 qt tub. 1500g+ snake.

2. What and how would you feed a male ball python in a tub.

Hot spot of 90. Small rat 30-40g every two weeks. 32/42qt tub. 1000g snake.
This isn't exactly what I do every time, but its a jumping off point I guess.