Same alleles, different names or not?

[OhhWatALoser]

I have no idea why you keep saying this.

Please read up on all of the different anomalies that "don't" happen in the animal kingdom.

The Werren Papers: The Coevolution of Autosomal and Cytoplasmic Sex Ratio Factors-PDF

More links from you as always, that yet again do not explain what we are seeing,

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...38#post2307438

This is the thread your claims are completely skewing what is reported by the people breeding these animals. I don't have anything to look into, you need to first get your facts straight about what the gene is actually doing, then feel free to share your theories on the why.

Edit: Do you enjoy posting links that have nothing to do with what we are seeing with the banana gene? I asked this last time, but I'll ask again, do you even read the crap you post? or does anything that mentions sex chromosomes and sex ratios automatically become proof?

[TessadasExotics]

Nothing to do with it? lol You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink. Alright I'm done trying to teach you something. You go on living in your sheltered life of denial. Both links are long papers explaining EXACTLY what is going on. Other species of animals can and do do the same thing. Just look at the research paper on the Tilapia.
Funny how someone who thinks they know so much actually knows so little and refuses to research what they don't know.
Instead of learning something youd rather tell lies and try to put down the one trying to show you something. Oh well. I'll not respond to you any further as it does nothing apparently.

Have a nice life.

[OhhWatALoser]

Nothing to do with it? lol You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink. Alright I'm done trying to teach you something. You go on living in your sheltered life of denial. Both links are long papers explaining EXACTLY what is going on. Other species of animals can and do do the same thing. Just look at the research paper on the Tilapia.
Funny how someone who thinks they know so much actually knows so little and refuses to research what they don't know.
Instead of learning something youd rather tell lies and try to put down the one trying to show you something. Oh well. I'll not respond to you any further as it does nothing apparently.

Have a nice life.

problem with your metaphor is you can make him drink, which I did give you that chance in the last thread to show off your great knowledge. Lets look at that:

Ok.
Assume first female is an f1
Female Bananas produce male and female offspring in apparently normal ratios.
Male (f1) bananas produced from female(f1) bananas will produce mostly male Bananas. We can assume it to be 99% of the time. All normal or non Banana offspring are regular male/female ratios.

This is not what is being reported by the people breeding these animals, Males produced from females will produce mostly female bananas and the non-banana offspring are not in regular ratios, they would be mostly male.

If a female (f2) is produced from a "male maker" (f1) Banana, She will produce males and females at normal ratios, but any male (f2) Banana will now make females and males at in normal ratios.

Female bananas produce normal ratio regardless of where they come from. There is no such thing as a male that produces normal ratios.

So it is a sex linked recessive gene which does happen and is illustrated and explained in the previous links I posted for you.

oh really?

So unless you want to say the people breeding these things are lying to us and the people personally around me breeding them are just lucky they are getting the same results, no Tess you have no idea how the gene works. When this crap first broke loose I talked to Brock in person and he gave me his explanation (which is nothing like you are reporting) and quite a bit of clutch data numbers to back it up. While he might of incorrectly called it sex linked (which we have argued over) that is simply an argument about a definition, like arguing over co-dom vs inc-dom, not the mechanics of the gene, which simply break down to:

Females produce normal ratios
Males banana from male bananas produce mostly male bananas and thus producing mostly female non bananas
Male banana from female banana produce mostly female bananas thus producing mostly male non bananas.

The total clutch sex ratio are not skewed in any clutch, but one sex will tend to be the morph while the other will tend not to be if the gene is coming from the male.

Not that isn't the 5th or so time I have presented this information to you, but you still seem to be stuck on that generational explanation which as I have pointed out multiple times, doesn't even follow the mechanics correctly. Forget me, talk to kevin, talk to brock, talk to mike, talk to anyone breeding these things and get your facts straight and stop spewing this crap you have been for years now.

[kaitala]

Back to allele complexes, thanks for that. I'll look into that further.

Im trying to work with what i have and add compatible genes that produce visuals I'd be passionate about.

I would love to add something from the albino complex. probably just an albino male to go with the het females and work with that.

Thanks again for all this.

[MarkS]

Female bananas produce normal ratio regardless of where they come from. There is no such thing as a male that produces normal ratios.

Actually the very first female banana was a wild caught animal that was sold to Will Slough by Noah as some kind of caramel albino. (going by looks as it had never yet been bred) The first breeding was the female banana to a male clown. It was a surprise to see baby bananas in the hatch since the female was assumed to be a caramel albino (there were either 4 or 5 bananas, I can't remember exactly somewhere I've got a picture of the original clutch but I haven't been able to find it for years, Will had posted the picture on Kingsnake.com). All of the baby bananas were female. I have a friend who drove from California to Chicago to buy one and he sexed all of the bananas hoping for a male, but no luck. He did end up buying one of the females though. I believe that the next year the female was bred she produced all slugs and the next time she had good eggs she once again produced all female bananas, I kind of lost track of it after that so I don't know what else happened from that point on. I believe that somewhere in there Will sold off his collection but I'm not certain who picked them up.

[OhhWatALoser]

Actually the very first female banana was a wild caught animal that was sold to Will Slough by Noah as some kind of caramel albino. (going by looks as it had never yet been bred) The first breeding was the female banana to a male clown. It was a surprise to see baby bananas in the hatch since the female was assumed to be a caramel albino (there were either 4 or 5 bananas, I can't remember exactly somewhere I've got a picture of the original clutch but I haven't been able to find it for years, Will had posted the picture on Kingsnake.com). All of the baby bananas were female. I have a friend who drove from California to Chicago to buy one and he sexed all of the bananas hoping for a male, but no luck. He did end up buying one of the females though. I believe that the next year the female was bred she produced all slugs and the next time she had good eggs she once again produced all female bananas, I kind of lost track of it after that so I don't know what else happened from that point on. I believe that somewhere in there Will sold off his collection but I'm not certain who picked them up.

first time I have heard of this, very interesting. Wish there was a way to follow up on it. I mean anyone can say it was dumb luck, but if there was really a skewed ratio, it would be valuable information to the puzzle.

[paulh]

Actually the very first female banana was a wild caught animal that was sold to Will Slough by Noah as some kind of caramel albino. (going by looks as it had never yet been bred) The first breeding was the female banana to a male clown. It was a surprise to see baby bananas in the hatch since the female was assumed to be a caramel albino (there were either 4 or 5 bananas, I can't remember exactly somewhere I've got a picture of the original clutch but I haven't been able to find it for years, Will had posted the picture on Kingsnake.com). All of the baby bananas were female. I have a friend who drove from California to Chicago to buy one and he sexed all of the bananas hoping for a male, but no luck. He did end up buying one of the females though. I believe that the next year the female was bred she produced all slugs and the next time she had good eggs she once again produced all female bananas, I kind of lost track of it after that so I don't know what else happened from that point on. I believe that somewhere in there Will sold off his collection but I'm not certain who picked them up.

I have worked with Z chromosome-linked mutant genes in pigeons and ringneck doves.

If banana/coral glow was a routine type of Z linked recessive mutant, then a b/cg female mated to a normal male would produce normal females and normal looking, het b/cg males. So b/cg is not recessive to the normal version of the gene.

If banana/coral glow was a routine type of Z linked dominant mutant, then a b/cg female mated to a normal male would produce normal females and b/cg males.

Whatever is going on in the chromosomes seems pretty weird to me. I still have to look at that fish paper, though.

[OhhWatALoser]

To follow up, Mark and I looked into the original banana, while the original female did only make female bananas, the normals were of both sexes. So I think it is reasonable to say they just missed on the male banana and the gene was still acting as it has been.

[MarkS]

I have worked with Z chromosome-linked mutant genes in pigeons and ringneck doves.

If banana/coral glow was a routine type of Z linked recessive mutant, then a b/cg female mated to a normal male would produce normal females and normal looking, het b/cg males. So b/cg is not recessive to the normal version of the gene.

If banana/coral glow was a routine type of Z linked dominant mutant, then a b/cg female mated to a normal male would produce normal females and b/cg males.

Whatever is going on in the chromosomes seems pretty weird to me. I still have to look at that fish paper, though.

I understand that most people who have been following this now believe that this is NOT a sex linked mutation. My understanding of a sex linked mutation, is that the mutation in question is located ON the chromosome that determines gender. If that is the case, then it would not be possible to have mutant males that pass on their mutation only to other males AND mutant males that passes on their mutation to only females. You could have one or the other, but not both. At least not if gender is only determined by the presence or absense of Z or W chromosomes

Here is an interesting link to sex studies done on lizards.... - Might not have anything to do with snakes, but who knows? - > http://www.tc.umn.edu/~gambl007/publ...kower_2012.pdf

[OhhWatALoser]

I understand that most people who have been following this now believe that this is NOT a sex linked mutation. My understanding of a sex linked mutation, is that the mutation in question is located ON the chromosome that determines gender. If that is the case, then it would not be possible to have mutant males that pass on their mutation only to other males AND mutant males that passes on their mutation to only females. You could have one or the other, but not both.

Just to add to this, if we ever saw a sex linked gene, we would see one of these two scenarios:

W-Linked: Females could only have the gene, there would only be a heterozygous form, no supers. Every female born would have the gene, males never would.

Z-Linked: Both females and males could be heterozygous. Only males could be supers. Male morph or Male super morph x normal female would give normal ratios. Male normal x female morph would give all male morphs and all female normals.

and there wouldn't be any male maker/female maker but small percentage does the opposite stuff going on.

At least not if gender is only determined by the presence or absense of Z or W chromosomes

It is something to keep in the back of our minds, there are cases of chromosome not being the only sex determining factor, but I don't see any evidence to suggest it going on here.