Same alleles, different names or not?

[kaitala]

I've seen posts with "lesser, butter, same thing" and "banana, coral glow, same thing".

If they are the same, you should be able to mate one with the other and produce supers, no?

So if they produce a "butter lesser" or a "banana cg", they are distinctly different alleles, correct? Like a Lavender Albino and an Albino allele are different and one het for each will not produce an albino snake?

[OhhWatALoser]

In the case of butter lesser and banana cg, those are not different alleles, they are the exact same. You can produce supers and when you breed the super, there is no distinguishing features between the babies to call one a name over another name.

Lavender albino and albino are not alleles, they sit on completely different loci. Toffee and candy are alleles to albino though. I do not know of any to lavender.

[kaitala]

Wow, BP genetics are frustrating. Why even have two names for them?

How many loci are there?

Which alleles correspond with each other, as you said, Toffee, Candy and Albino would all reside at the same loci, so which are at what loci?

If you could post a link or two, that would be great. I haven't had much luck finding anything, much less correct information. In fact, I have only found one site that even mentioned incomplete vs codominance, and it didn't even deal with which morphs were incomplete vs codom, just a brief glossing over.

Thanks...

[OhhWatALoser]

Wow, BP genetics are frustrating. Why even have two names for them?

Two or more people import the same morph and give names before they find out they are the same morph. Like in the case of the lessers, the original animal imported was actually a Platinum, which eventually made lessers.

How many loci are there?

Potentially Thousands

Which alleles correspond with each other, as you said, Toffee, Candy and Albino would all reside at the same loci, so which are at what loci?

In the hobby we call them complexes, http://www.owalreptiles.com/complexes.php

If you could post a link or two, that would be great. I haven't had much luck finding anything, much less correct information. In fact, I have only found one site that even mentioned incomplete vs codominance, and it didn't even deal with which morphs were incomplete vs codom, just a brief glossing over.

Thanks...

Scaleless in the only morph I can think of that can actually be called co-dom, however many inc-dom are called co-dom, as I'm sure you have seen already.

[Daigga]

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, still learning about the genetics involved, so my terminology might be wrong.

Butters and lessers are part of an allelic complex along with mojaves, bamboos, and het russos. When bred together any of these snakes produces a blue eyed leucistic animal (the super form of anything in this complex), however looking at each individual gene will show you that they are not all different names for the same gene. A mojo looks nothing like a het russo, and a lesser looks nothing like a bamboo. It's also worth mentioning that a white diamond BEL (the "super russo") looks way different than a super mojo, which looks different from the purer white BEL's. Lessers and butters look pretty similar, sure, and there are arguments either way on that topic, but that's a different debate. It's a weird jumble, and honestly The surest way to tell what's inside your BEL is to ask the breeder. I know there are other allelic combos, but the leucistic complex is the only one I've really looked into.

As for bananas, coral glows, and white smokes; many people argue that they are the same thing though I don't think it has been proven either way.

[kaitala]

Awesome, now we're getting into the juicy meat of brain food I love!

thanks for the link, ill do some reading before i pester you all again. ..

[kaitala]

I lied. i read some but am going to ask now.

So if I have a Cinnamon het albino, and breed to a het toffee or candy, would I get a visual manifestation of the albino complex?

[OhhWatALoser]

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, still learning about the genetics involved, so my terminology might be wrong.

Butters and lessers are part of an allelic complex along with mojaves, bamboos, and het russos. When bred together any of these snakes produces a blue eyed leucistic animal (the super form of anything in this complex), however looking at each individual gene will show you that they are not all different names for the same gene. A mojo looks nothing like a het russo, and a lesser looks nothing like a bamboo. It's also worth mentioning that a white diamond BEL (the "super russo") looks way different than a super mojo, which looks different from the purer white BEL's. Lessers and butters look pretty similar, sure, and there are arguments either way on that topic, but that's a different debate. It's a weird jumble, and honestly The surest way to tell what's inside your BEL is to ask the breeder. I know there are other allelic combos, but the leucistic complex is the only one I've really looked into.

As for bananas, coral glows, and white smokes; many people argue that they are the same thing though I don't think it has been proven either way.

I guess I wasn't very clear with that. You are correct, most of the genes listed are actually alleles. Butter and Lesser are two names for the same and there is debate whether mystic and phantom are the same, but I have not dug too far into that debate, so I don't really know. However the rest are obviously different from each other, but breeding has shown them to sit on the same locus. Some of the combos don't even make BEL at all, special mojave makes a crystal.

Yellow Belly and Orange Belly are also more than likely the same, but with information with the graphite project still up in the air (which the orange bellies were used), we can't say for 100% they are same

As for banana cg (whitesmoke is another name for cg) well they are identical looking morphs that grow black spots as they age, have the same breeding anomaly that doesn't even have a name because it has never been seen in the animal kingdom that only effects the males, and produce identical looking supers. I think the chances of them being on different loci is as close to zero as you can get.

I lied. i read some but am going to ask now.

So if I have a Cinnamon het albino, and breed to a het toffee or candy, would I get a visual manifestation of the albino complex?

You have a chance to, If it was het toffee, you would have a 1/8 chance of getting a cinny toffino and a 1/8 chance at a toffino (or candino if it was het candy instead)

[TessadasExotics]

As for banana cg (whitesmoke is another name for cg) well they are identical looking morphs that grow black spots as they age, have the same breeding anomaly that doesn't even have a name because it has never been seen in the animal kingdom that only effects the males, and produce identical looking supers. I think the chances of them being on different loci is as close to zero as you can get.

I have no idea why you keep saying this.

Please read up on all of the different anomalies that "don't" happen in the animal kingdom.

The Werren Papers: The Coevolution of Autosomal and Cytoplasmic Sex Ratio Factors-PDF

[TessadasExotics]

Also you can read about the Nile Tilapia here.

Nile Tilapia sex ratio genetics