Quality of Snakes- Kaitala's burning question #1

[kaitala]

So I have 6 BPs, 5 female, Pied, Cinnamon and 3 normals, and one spider male. Picking up a het pied male today for the Pied female. We've bred before, but this is what the collection is down to now.

It's been a long time since I followed reptile markets and there are tons of new morphs.

But I'm wondering, with no true "morph standards", how does one choose high quality animals to breed? So much of BPs seem to be personal preference anyway, how do I know that my spider male has genes worth passing on? My Pied is pretty and high white, but low whites can throw high white and vice versa, so that isn't a genetic standard, some yellow snakes brown out over time, but that doesn't mean they don't throw snakes that stay yellow, etc.

In a market where there are SO many snakes, I wonder how to measure quality of any I might pick up, of what I have, and whether or not mine are worth even breeding (the pied is going to be bred, obviously, if I'm picking up a mate for her.)

It's easier in the dog world. They have the standards for "show" quality and "pet" quality.


Thanks for your input.

[Eric Alan]

You nailed it on the head. As there are no standards, it largely comes down to personal preference. You measure quality by choosing snakes that make you smile every time you open their tubs and not just looking for the best deal you can find.

[Skiploder]

So I have 6 BPs, 5 female, Pied, Cinnamon and 3 normals, and one spider male. Picking up a het pied male today for the Pied female. We've bred before, but this is what the collection is down to now.

It's been a long time since I followed reptile markets and there are tons of new morphs.

But I'm wondering, with no true "morph standards", how does one choose high quality animals to breed? So much of BPs seem to be personal preference anyway, how do I know that my spider male has genes worth passing on? My Pied is pretty and high white, but low whites can throw high white and vice versa, so that isn't a genetic standard, some yellow snakes brown out over time, but that doesn't mean they don't throw snakes that stay yellow, etc.

In a market where there are SO many snakes, I wonder how to measure quality of any I might pick up, of what I have, and whether or not mine are worth even breeding (the pied is going to be bred, obviously, if I'm picking up a mate for her.)

It's easier in the dog world. They have the standards for "show" quality and "pet" quality.


Thanks for your input.

It's all aesthetics...just like in the dog show world, where a show quality dog does not necessarily mean a dog that is (1) capable of doing what it was bred to do or (2) is of sound mind and body.

There are naturally occurring snake species that have been deemed aesthetically inferior to line bred animals. An example of this are black tailed cribos.

In many areas, a black tailed cribo actually has a brown or body colored tail. Instead of embracing what mother nature has created and breeding these animals true to their locality, they are sneeringly dubbed "brown-tails" by dumbass breeders whose sole goal is to make a buck. These Cribo breeders then line breed their animals to produce traits that they feel are more aesthetically pleasing.

It has come to my attention recently that some health issues are rearing their heads in the cribo world...issues that haven't been a concern until recently. Issues that many of us predicted years ago (hat tip to Mean Old Don Pogue).

Same with purebred show dogs. You breed for form instead of function and you have problems. Read and watch "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" if you want to see the horrors of what breeding for looks has done to the dog world.

To get back your your question, "true morph standards" exist in the eyes of the self-appointed Gods of the ball python world. If some idiot who's sole claim to fame is that he can get lots of ball python morphs to have sex with other ball pythons morphs states that one type of morph is superior to another form, then the sheeple agree.

I'd measure the quality by the health of the animal. Does it feed, shed and crap normally? Good. Is it free of inbreeding induced health issues? Good.

Is the animal attractive to YOU? Excellent.

In a market where a snake is worth $10K today and a mere fraction of that in a year, I'd say that it doesn't matter anyway.

[kaitala]

Valid points. Thank you for your replies!

It seems that all the multi-gene morphs predominate the classifieds. How are lines kept fresh?

Is there still any kind of market for basic morphs like my spider? I saw on fauna some for $50-$125, but that doesn't mean they move. I don't want to breed babies that I don't want, and can't move if I don't hold them back. If I bred the spider to my 3 normal females, what are the chances I'd have a bunch of normals and spiders that will never "move out"???? Are the Normals good for anything any more?

[Karokash]

It's always hard to follow up any posts that Skiploader submits, haha, But I agree with both of you; with a market this fluctuating in demand and no really set parameters for aesthetic quality per se, it all kind of goes back to the basic principle of something only being worth what someone else is willing to pay for it (in the monetary sense of "worth" obviously.)

So with attempting to quantify aesthetic worth out the window your left with what Skiploader suggested; look at function. You can base the general "quality" of the snakes on their health and behaviors; eating, shedding, health conditions, etc. (and even that can sometimes come down to preference, live feeders vs f/t feeders or someone willing to take a slight wobble because they just absolutely must have that certain patterning.)

Personally, I'd be looking to check off everything about it's "functional" quality when purchasing one before I went back and started comparing looks.

Apologies for the fact i'm still a newbie so i'm just sort of speaking my opinions...and for all the unnecessary quotations.

[Skiploder]

I know someone who paid a crap bucket full of money for a pair of drymarchon rubidus.

Both snakes have tell tale signs of inbreeding.

But they are truly gorgeous animals. Sold by a breeder who maintains a truly gorgeous website...and breeds for aesthetic qualities...and who takes fantastic photos.

Investment quality animals, photographed with an investment quality camera.

Now, I never sold my drys for nearly as much money...even in a more rarified market.

I didn't have a fancy website.

...and I imported my animals myself.

...and my photography skills suck.

...and my animals have paired subcaudal scales - like a drymarchon should.

My female don't egg bind.

My animals don't have a tendency towards eye infections.

But the name of the breeder with the fancy website and the slick photographs regularly commands more money for his animals than I ever did - even in an age when most drymarchon species were truly rare.

...and to the Google crowd he is an expert on the species.

Why are his animals worth more - in a crowded market nonetheless?

Answer that question and you've answered the OP's original post.

The big names can sell alot of CRAP based on star power.

Their OPINIONS often dictate what the aesthetic basis for snake is - be it species or morph.

There was a time when I worried about what would sell and why it would sell. I have pretty much stopped producing animals, and enjoy the hobby much much more.

There are a lot of unsold ball pythons on the market. The market rewards aesthetics first, health second.

My humble opinion is that the last thing the world needs is more unwanted ball pythons neonates, bred by a person who has no "stick" in the hobby. No offense OP, but this market is unlike any I've seen in the last couple of decades. I'm pretty much sick of people advertising quality when their animals are anything but.

[kaitala]

My humble opinion is that the last thing the world needs is more unwanted ball pythons neonates, bred by a person who has no "stick" in the hobby. No offense OP, but this market is unlike any I've seen in the last couple of decades. I'm pretty much sick of people advertising quality when their animals are anything but.

Agreed. Will hold off on breeding the normals.

Het pied is only 400+g, so probably won't be ready this year.

I'm thinking I'd be willing to invest in spider het pied with the spider x pied combo, and in cinnabees with the cinnamon x spider. That's *if* he breeds. He's not proven.

I would say that the spider is worth breeding because, other than being pretty, he has almost no head wobble. He would strike you as not the smartest snake ever, but he's all but free of defect. Needs the "dancing rat" to eat f/t, but does. About 4yo.

Pied, pretty female, high white, never bred, about 5yo. Great feeder, nice snake.

Cinnamon, pretty, and I love the cinnabee pics I've seen. She's never bred either, decent eater. also about 4yo.

So we have nice mature snakes to deal with, all eat well enough to eat f/t, they are nice looking to very pretty, and I'm willing to rear any babies.


There's time before I put them together. I have to learn about the ovulation indicators, etc. and hope they both ready to go sometime soon. I have just started working with them, and they are VERY different from my colubrids. Colubrids were easy, brumate, bring the females out first, get a meal in them, then bring the males out, and put them together.

Thanks for your help. I'll see if I can post pics soon.

[angllady2]

One thing to keep in mind is the market in your area. Are there lots of other ball python breeders in your state? Are there lots of reptile shows where there are 15 tables worth of ball pythons and 5 tables with anything else? If the answer is yes, chances are you won't sell many of your ball pythons unless they are double gene at least, and triples and quads are better. That is the situation I face now. No one is interested in a single gene spider or mojave, no matter how nice it looks or how healthy it is when the guy two tables down is selling triple and quad genes for next to nothing. So I breed just a few snakes, and I aim for single genes you don't see many of, and doubles that I like. Sometimes I sell a few quickly, sometimes I have them for a year or longer before they sell. And I deal with that.

Now, if there are only a handful of breeders in your state, and what reptile shows you go to have fewer than half of the tables devoted to ball pythons, you can sell your animals a lot easier.

Trouble is, the ball python is a very popular animal that is relatively easy to breed, and therefore many many people breed them, thinking they will make money quickly by doing so. As a result, there are far to many available snakes and far too few buyers out there. Breed for what pleases you, but consign yourself to the fact they may not sell right away. Unless you can make arrangements with a local pet shop or two who might be willing to take your normals and some single genes at a discounted rate for resale in their shops. Which I have done a few times.

Gale

[JMinILM]

its all in the eye of the beholder.

[Running Elk]

Some of it is preference. For example, my ideal super fire has lots of yellow splotches. My ideal pied is medium white, with even bands of piebalding.

Some genes are just problematic, like spiders, champagnes, cinnamons, etc. Some gene combos have really bad problems and some are fatal. Many of those problems don't seem so much linked with the quality of one person's animal over another persons -- simply a problematoc gene and specific animals. And each animal varies. I've seen spiders that seem to be on another planet, with no equilibrium whatsoever. And some like mine, that seem perfectly normal.