Cleaning/Substrate dilemma.. Opinions please?

[Skiploder]

Ive been reading a lot of back/forth info about it. Read some threads on some other forums about this topic and its like a live vs. f/t debate. Some say the pine is harmful and others have said that they have been housing their snakes on pine for years without any adverse affects. And since there are no scientific articles that actually can prove this I'm not 100% sure but not going to risk it. But the reason most say its toxic is the same reason it "can" be toxic to mammals, the aromatic hydrocarbons (phenols) that give pine/cedar its pleasant woody scent, these compounds when inhaled by reptiles and mammals can cause respiratory infections/respiratory inflammation and sometimes liver problems.

You know that many people use pine with their rodents without ill effect - including some of the mods? You know that some of the biggest most successful breeders in the world us it also? Those treatises warning against the purported health risks of pine are not peer reviewed literature but the rantings and beliefs of another forum frau making an amusing attempt to interpret some fairly complex scientific and medical data - data that did not draw the same conclusions as she.

The same debates are held on tortoise forums regarding diet. Some forum warrior did a breakdown of the phyto-chemical components of commonly fed tortoise greens and has started a wide spread belief that perfectly harmless food is harmful. Food that the animals actually eat in large quantities in the wild.

I have been waiting for years for one person to come forward with verifiable proof that pine (we are not talking about cedar) has caused harm to their reptiles, let alone rodents. I've got some really old animals on pine.

Nothing. All forum hookum. All forum rumors.

Now Chris, what if we could show that soaking your snake before it sheds is detrimental on several fronts? We'd then have you - in one thread - advocating a detrimental practice while warning against a harmless one.

Now there is nothing wrong with that - unless someone takes your advice and regularly soaks their snakes and has a problem. Words have weight, and advice is not a thing to be given lightly or without the experience to back it up.

[Morris Reese]

You know that many people use pine with their rodents without ill effect - including some of the mods? You know that some of the biggest most successful breeders in the world us it also? Those treatises warning against the purported health risks of pine are not peer reviewed literature but the rantings and beliefs of another forum frau making an amusing attempt to interpret some fairly complex scientific and medical data - data that did not draw the same conclusions as she.

The same debates are held on tortoise forums regarding diet. Some forum warrior did a breakdown of the phyto-chemical components of commonly fed tortoise greens and has started a wide spread belief that perfectly harmless food is harmful. Food that the animals actually eat in large quantities in the wild.

I have been waiting for years for one person to come forward with verifiable proof that pine (we are not talking about cedar) has caused harm to their reptiles, let alone rodents. I've got some really old animals on pine.

Nothing. All forum hookum. All forum rumors.

Now Chris, what if we could show that soaking your snake before it sheds is detrimental on several fronts? We'd then have you - in one thread - advocating a detrimental practice while warning against a harmless one.

Now there is nothing wrong with that - unless someone takes your advice and regularly soaks their snakes and has a problem. Words have weight, and advice is not a thing to be given lightly or without the experience to back it up.

I have always heard the warnings against pine as well. I am getting ready to build a custom enclosure for my BP. I have read over and over NOT TO USE PINE. With most pine lumber that has a little age, not just fresh cut, does not have much of a smell to it. If I build an enclosure, stain it, give it a week or so to cure, add heating and light to the inside and let it sit for a couple more days, my snake should be fine, right!

[Skiploder]

I have always heard the warnings against pine as well. I am getting ready to build a custom enclosure for my BP. I have read over and over NOT TO USE PINE. With most pine lumber that has a little age, not just fresh cut, does not have much of a smell to it. If I build an enclosure, stain it, give it a week or so to cure, add heating and light to the inside and let it sit for a couple more days, my snake should be fine, right!

You snake will be fine. The stain poses a greater risk to your animals.


http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...at+pine+debate

[Twitchy]

your welcome! glad to help

[AlexisFitzy]

You know that many people use pine with their rodents without ill effect - including some of the mods? You know that some of the biggest most successful breeders in the world us it also? Those treatises warning against the purported health risks of pine are not peer reviewed literature but the rantings and beliefs of another forum frau making an amusing attempt to interpret some fairly complex scientific and medical data - data that did not draw the same conclusions as she.

The same debates are held on tortoise forums regarding diet. Some forum warrior did a breakdown of the phyto-chemical components of commonly fed tortoise greens and has started a wide spread belief that perfectly harmless food is harmful. Food that the animals actually eat in large quantities in the wild.

I have been waiting for years for one person to come forward with verifiable proof that pine (we are not talking about cedar) has caused harm to their reptiles, let alone rodents. I've got some really old animals on pine.

Nothing. All forum hookum. All forum rumors.

Now Chris, what if we could show that soaking your snake before it sheds is detrimental on several fronts? We'd then have you - in one thread - advocating a detrimental practice while warning against a harmless one.

Now there is nothing wrong with that - unless someone takes your advice and regularly soaks their snakes and has a problem. Words have weight, and advice is not a thing to be given lightly or without the experience to back it up.

Awesome! Thanks Skip Another forum myth put to rest! I was thinking it was all smoke & mirrors but wasn't 100% sure. Guess who learned something new today!! Haha


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[Mike41793]

Pine is toxic to snakes?

How long does it take to kill them? I've been using it for decades....for the love of God, what have I done?

Please let me know ASAP. I need some people who are experienced keepers who have lost snakes to pine or who are battling chronic pine bedding related illnesses to let me know how long my babies have to live.

I've been keeping mine on pine for a few weeks now so I know what I'm doing. They're all ok. You can keep them on it. Trust me


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[JoRandom]

I've been keeping mine on pine for a few weeks now so I know what I'm doing. They're all ok. You can keep them on it. Trust me


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Wow, the detail in that photo is just brilliant! Your photography skills are astounding Mike.

[Mike41793]

Wow, the detail in that photo is just brilliant! Your photography skills are astounding Mike.

Thanks! I took it myself. With a camera.

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