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04-06-2014, 03:39 PM
#121
I moved the eggs to the incubator. They felt fairly soft and pliable, so high hopes. Perhaps they would have been fine after all without me adding the moss last night, but what's done is done.
Here's the post from the last page, for higher visibility.
Okay, so.
I've got the incubator heating up, and will be removing the eggs in an hour or two, after temperatures are stable.
I want to thank everyone for their support and interest in this project. It means a lot to me. In a way, I feel like I've failed you all, and this decision was one that I struggled with for days. In the end, I feel that the eggs will be better off in an incubator until they hatch. This was a preventable decision, and I feel badly that I didn't put enough foresight into this process to succeed.
I'll be happy to answer any questions that I didn't anticipate in this post.
1) Why am I removing the eggs?
Because Charlotte has stopped wrapping them, and the temperature of the eggs is unstable (one is at 85 degrees, another is at 88 degrees).
2) Is this a reason not to do maternal incubation or something that can typically be expected to happen with MI?
Absolutely not. I feel that the reason Charlotte has abandoned the nest is due to my own mistakes. Adding the damp moss disturbed her, and I feel that in general I have been too attentive toward her and the nest. I've made her uncomfortable, and that is something that could have easily been avoided.
3) How will I prevent this from happening in the future?
Next year I will have a much better setup for MI. I underestimated how hard it would be to keep humidity up in an arid state like Utah. Charlotte is in a poorly-made rack that lets a lot of humidity escape. Next year my brooding females will be in a professional rack, and I may even put the maternally incubating females in tubs with lids.
4) Is this an issue that other people should prepare for?
I don't believe this will be an issue for most people who want to try maternal incubation. Keep in mind the humidity of where you live, and be prepared to adjust the brooding female's enclosure as necessary. These adjustments should be done BEFORE she lays eggs, as doing so afterward can result in her leaving the nest (as happened here).
5) What would I have done differently to succeed at maternal incubation?
Next time (and yes, there will be a next time), I will be more careful and aggressive with keeping humidity at acceptable levels. If I had set up the nest to maintain the proper levels of humidity, I would not have had to disturb it at all, and I believe I would have succeeded with Charlotte. I underestimated how dry Utah is, and the coconut husk and sphagnum moss bedding were not enough. In the future I will use a better rack, or tubs with lids on to maintain humidity. I may also experiment with containers of water crystals near the heat source, or containers of plain water if I can figure out a way to keep them secure.
Last edited by meowmeowkazoo; 04-06-2014 at 03:41 PM.
[Python regius]
1.0 Black Butter Pinstripe (Amazeballs), 1.0 Pastel Butter Leopard (Thunderbeeper)
0.1 Spider (Charlotte), 0.1 Leopard (Spot), 0.1 Pastel (Buttercup), Fire Sugar (Abaddon), Crystal (Opalescence)
[Python brongersmai]
1.1 T+ Albino (Kushiel & Carmilla)
[Boa imperator]
1.0 Hypo 100% Het Leopard/66% Het Albino (Darcy)
0.1 66% Het Leopard/Albino (Gabby)
[Colubrids]
0.1 Cave-dwelling Rat Snakes (Betty Spaghetti)
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04-06-2014, 08:22 PM
#122
Here's the eggs. They're in a sealed off hovabator with a herpstat 1 basic thermostat and water in the plastic insert (not touching the eggs, obviously).
[Python regius]
1.0 Black Butter Pinstripe (Amazeballs), 1.0 Pastel Butter Leopard (Thunderbeeper)
0.1 Spider (Charlotte), 0.1 Leopard (Spot), 0.1 Pastel (Buttercup), Fire Sugar (Abaddon), Crystal (Opalescence)
[Python brongersmai]
1.1 T+ Albino (Kushiel & Carmilla)
[Boa imperator]
1.0 Hypo 100% Het Leopard/66% Het Albino (Darcy)
0.1 66% Het Leopard/Albino (Gabby)
[Colubrids]
0.1 Cave-dwelling Rat Snakes (Betty Spaghetti)
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04-06-2014, 08:59 PM
#123
Whether you made it to the end or not this thread was amazing! Watching someone document maternal incubation was awesome and I'm sure it'll open a lot of people's eyes as to whether they want to try it or not. Good luck with the eggs I speak for everyone that has been following this thread when I say we wish the you the best and hope to see some little hatchlings coming soon
6.13 Ball pythons
1.0 Hypo Jungle Boa
0.1 Irian Jaya Jaguar Carpet
Instagram: MetropolisReptiles
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The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to BumbleB For This Useful Post:
AlexisFitzy (04-06-2014),Alicia (04-08-2014),Baileybones0413 (04-06-2014),meowmeowkazoo (04-06-2014),Mr. Misha (04-06-2014),SnowShredder (04-07-2014),steve_r34 (04-09-2014)
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04-06-2014, 09:40 PM
#124
Re: Pastel Butter x Spider (Maternal Incubation)
 Originally Posted by BumbleB
Whether you made it to the end or not this thread was amazing! Watching someone document maternal incubation was awesome and I'm sure it'll open a lot of people's eyes as to whether they want to try it or not. Good luck with the eggs I speak for everyone that has been following this thread when I say we wish the you the best and hope to see some little hatchlings coming soon
Thank you, that means a lot. I have had some criticism along the way (i.e. why don't you just spend the money and get a good incubator), but I have also had far more support than I expected, which was wonderful.
If my other herpstat arrives in time, I will be trying maternal incubation with my leopard clutch in a new rack system. If not, I plan on resuming my exploration of maternal incubation next year. I feel confident that I (and anyone else) can succeed at maternal incubation when we have the right tools and information. Now that I better understand the humidity I'm dealing with here in Utah, I can prepare for it and avoid having to disturb the nest and the mother during incubation.
I truly hope that this won't discourage people from trying maternal incubation on their own. It's not difficult if you're prepared, it's a wonderful experience, and it's an amazing insight into these animals we own.
[Python regius]
1.0 Black Butter Pinstripe (Amazeballs), 1.0 Pastel Butter Leopard (Thunderbeeper)
0.1 Spider (Charlotte), 0.1 Leopard (Spot), 0.1 Pastel (Buttercup), Fire Sugar (Abaddon), Crystal (Opalescence)
[Python brongersmai]
1.1 T+ Albino (Kushiel & Carmilla)
[Boa imperator]
1.0 Hypo 100% Het Leopard/66% Het Albino (Darcy)
0.1 66% Het Leopard/Albino (Gabby)
[Colubrids]
0.1 Cave-dwelling Rat Snakes (Betty Spaghetti)
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The Following User Says Thank You to meowmeowkazoo For This Useful Post:
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04-06-2014, 10:19 PM
#125
Re: Pastel Butter x Spider (Maternal Incubation)
Would you mind sending me a PM with your research materials? I'd like to do some reading because I'd love to try this out with a clutch next year.
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04-07-2014, 12:13 AM
#126
Re: Pastel Butter x Spider (Maternal Incubation)
 Originally Posted by BHReptiles
Would you mind sending me a PM with your research materials? I'd like to do some reading because I'd love to try this out with a clutch next year.
Sure, I will write one up tomorrow.
[Python regius]
1.0 Black Butter Pinstripe (Amazeballs), 1.0 Pastel Butter Leopard (Thunderbeeper)
0.1 Spider (Charlotte), 0.1 Leopard (Spot), 0.1 Pastel (Buttercup), Fire Sugar (Abaddon), Crystal (Opalescence)
[Python brongersmai]
1.1 T+ Albino (Kushiel & Carmilla)
[Boa imperator]
1.0 Hypo 100% Het Leopard/66% Het Albino (Darcy)
0.1 66% Het Leopard/Albino (Gabby)
[Colubrids]
0.1 Cave-dwelling Rat Snakes (Betty Spaghetti)
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04-07-2014, 12:04 PM
#127

I'm sad, and especially sad for you, that this didn't go all the way to hatching, but I totally understand your choice.
Please keep updating us on your trials at maternal incubation. There isn't nearly enough good info out there about it! And of course, we want pics when these eggs hatch!
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The Following User Says Thank You to kc261 For This Useful Post:
meowmeowkazoo (04-07-2014)
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04-07-2014, 02:59 PM
#128
Re: Pastel Butter x Spider (Maternal Incubation)
Don't let the few tell you how to do what you want to do. I've been reading this thread from the beginning and I think it's amazing what you have accomplished. This makes me want to do maternal incubation when I decide to start breeding. Personally I'm very proud of what you have done. It's not about "what could have been". Its about what you have accomplished. I live in an arid climate also. I can't wait to see what else you do. This is making me want to try breeding this season but know my friends aren't ready. Keep up the awesome work. Also if you do maternal on your next clutch start a thread so I can live vicariously through it until my babies are ready. I'm excited by what you are learning. There needs to be more info on maternal incubation. Best wishes going out to you.
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The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Phantomtip For This Useful Post:
AlexisFitzy (04-07-2014),Baileybones0413 (04-07-2014),BHReptiles (04-07-2014),meowmeowkazoo (04-07-2014),sorraia (04-07-2014)
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04-07-2014, 03:11 PM
#129
I'm actually wondering if she is doing this on purpose because they are close to hatch. A few reasons that may be true:
They give off more heat when they're closer to hatch
They may need room in the egg to position for cutting their egg open
They may actually need lower humidity for the egg to become brittle and therefore able to be cut open by the baby
It could be that she unwrapped for any of these reasons - the moss may have initiated it because she actually wants the eggs to dry out a bit. These are totally unproven speculations of course. I hope they all pop out happy and healthy soon for you and thanks for your documentation of the whole process!
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The Following User Says Thank You to MrLang For This Useful Post:
meowmeowkazoo (04-07-2014)
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04-07-2014, 03:33 PM
#130
Here's the information I sent via PM, as other people may find it useful.
I started off a few years ago, stalking Quiet Tempest's threads:
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/searc...earchid=965046
Bob Clark has a good article on it:
http://www.bobclark.com/articles/200603.html
This article is an excellent insight into how maternal incubation benefits the hatchlings (the study concludes that maternally incubated hatchlings are larger and heavier, with longer jaws):
http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...und_their_eggs
This article provides information on how maternal incubation affects the mother:
http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...80b0e0d1e7.pdf
[Python regius]
1.0 Black Butter Pinstripe (Amazeballs), 1.0 Pastel Butter Leopard (Thunderbeeper)
0.1 Spider (Charlotte), 0.1 Leopard (Spot), 0.1 Pastel (Buttercup), Fire Sugar (Abaddon), Crystal (Opalescence)
[Python brongersmai]
1.1 T+ Albino (Kushiel & Carmilla)
[Boa imperator]
1.0 Hypo 100% Het Leopard/66% Het Albino (Darcy)
0.1 66% Het Leopard/Albino (Gabby)
[Colubrids]
0.1 Cave-dwelling Rat Snakes (Betty Spaghetti)
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The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to meowmeowkazoo For This Useful Post:
Alicia (04-08-2014),bcr229 (04-07-2014),BHReptiles (04-07-2014),kc261 (04-10-2014),RockNRollProcelain (04-07-2014),sorraia (04-07-2014)
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