Male Eastern Black Headed Python Shed Pics

[Skiploder]

Nice animal.

Question: how is the locality of the snake determined? (ie eastern versus western). Is the locality verified somehow or is the descriptor "eastern" based on appearance?

Thanks in advance.

[MayerReptiles]

Nice animal.

Question: how is the locality of the snake determined? (ie eastern versus western). Is the locality verified somehow or is the descriptor "eastern" based on appearance?

Thanks in advance.

Good question! I actually didn't know myself until I went down to the 2013 National Reptile Breeders Expo in Daytona and saw a comparison for myself. It's difficult to say exact locales of specimens unless you find breeders that have kept extensive records of where they received their specimens originally came from. I was fortunate enough to find a breeder who did have such records, and mine are from the Queensland locale. Though breeders now usually just label their specimens as Black Headed Pythons unless they have records to validate their locales. As far as physical differences, the eastern variety of Black Headed Pythons tend to be larger and have more black and yellow or black and orange coloration to them. While the western variety tend to be smaller and have more a black and white or black and creme coloration. I posted a picture below of a western variety I saw while I was down at the 2013 NRBE. Hope this helps!

[Skiploder]

Good question! I actually didn't know myself until I went down to the 2013 National Reptile Breeders Expo in Daytona and saw a comparison for myself. It's difficult to say exact locales of specimens unless you find breeders that have kept extensive records of where they received their specimens originally came from. I was fortunate enough to find a breeder who did have such records, and mine are from the Queensland locale. Though breeders now usually just label their specimens as Black Headed Pythons unless they have records to validate their locales. As far as physical differences, the eastern variety of Black Headed Pythons tend to be larger and have more black and yellow or black and orange coloration to them. While the western variety tend to be smaller and have more a black and white or black and creme coloration. I posted a picture below of a western variety I saw while I was down at the 2013 NRBE. Hope this helps!

I kept them for years and also spent time working in Australia. The Aussies keep them by locale, and it is possible to confirm lineage. There are geographical intergrades that do not conform to strict color schemes.

As with womas and the various antaresia species, U.S. breeders often classify by looks - as, let's face it, these animals were all illegally smuggled out of Australia.

There are other ways to differentiate, namely a single pair of parietal bones in western populations as opposed to two or three in other populations. In terms of difference you can actually readily see, western specimens have fewer subocular and loreal scales.

[MayerReptiles]

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I kept them for years and also spent time working in Australia. The Aussies keep them by locale, and it is possible to confirm lineage. There are geographical intergrades that do not conform to strict color schemes.

As with womas and the various antaresia species, U.S. breeders often classify by looks - as, let's face it, these animals were all illegally smuggled out of Australia.

There are other ways to differentiate, namely a single pair of parietal bones in western populations as opposed to two or three in other populations. In terms of difference you can actually readily see, western specimens have fewer subocular and loreal scales.

I never knew that! I really appreciate you teaching me more about differentiating Black Headed Pythons locales by their scale counts . Also really cool to know you've raised some yourself and spent time in Australia with this wonderful species.

[Skiploder]

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I never knew that! I really appreciate you teaching me more about differentiating Black Headed Pythons locales by their scale counts . Also really cool to know you've raised some yourself and spent time in Australia with this wonderful species.

It's a bit humbling to see how many Aussie keepers keep and catalog their animals - in terms of localities. People in this Country do it with pines, gophers, bulls, kings and other native animals. There is an amazing diversity sometimes going simply from county to county and it's an excellent way to celebrate and keep true that diversity.

Unfortunately in some circles we stifle that diversity for the sake of aesthetics. True black tailed cribos can often be found in various central american localities with browned out tails. Well, some arbiter somewhere decided a pretty cribo doth not a brown tail make - so they are deemed an inferior animal, not true to some imaginary standard.

How many people on this dedicated forum know what differences lie between ball pythons that hail from different localities in Africa? I'd guess a miniscule number seeing as color morphs rule the roost. But stop for a sec and imagine how neat cataloging the subtle differences in geographical variants and breeding true to those localities would be.

I can't count the number of woma localities, stimson's localities and the like. Then you come here and people are claiming locality specific animals without any proof of origin. Years ago when many Australian species first became available, we had no idea where the animals were coming from. Now years and years later, people can all of a sudden pin-point their origin. No knock on you - just a somewhat jaded observation of marketing techniques in this hobby.

[MayerReptiles]

It's a bit humbling to see how many Aussie keepers keep and catalog their animals - in terms of localities. People in this Country do it with pines, gophers, bulls, kings and other native animals. There is an amazing diversity sometimes going simply from county to county and it's an excellent way to celebrate and keep true that diversity.

Unfortunately in some circles we stifle that diversity for the sake of aesthetics. True black tailed cribos can often be found in various central american localities with browned out tails. Well, some arbiter somewhere decided a pretty cribo doth not a brown tail make - so they are deemed an inferior animal, not true to some imaginary standard.

How many people on this dedicated forum know what differences lie between ball pythons that hail from different localities in Africa? I'd guess a miniscule number seeing as color morphs rule the roost. But stop for a sec and imagine how neat cataloging the subtle differences in geographical variants and breeding true to those localities would be.

I can't count the number of woma localities, stimson's localities and the like. Then you come here and people are claiming locality specific animals without any proof of origin. Years ago when many Australian species first became available, we had no idea where the animals were coming from. Now years and years later, people can all of a sudden pin-point their origin. No knock on you - just a somewhat jaded observation of marketing techniques in this hobby.

I take absolutely no offense to the observation, rather I welcome it with an open mind and learn something completely new about the reptile hobby . I completely agree with you that it's a shame that most breeders here in the states don't keep or have records on the origins of their reptiles that have been imported (either legally or illegally). As both a huge reptile enthusiast and biology teacher, I would love to learn about these overlooked subtle differences between different locales in varying species much like the example you gave with the black tailed cribos ,womas, stimson's python, or ball pythons. It would make a great lecture or presentation to teach people about geographic isolation, genetics, and subspecies. I also completely agree that establishing true breeding lines of these animals would be extremely interesting to see how each locales unique traits would vary them from others of the same species rather than seeing the current reptile market mind set of color morphs in their animals. With knowledge like that on specific species locales, it would definitely prove to be a rare and valuable skill set in possibly identifying future or current species locales in collections and clarifying any questions people may have about the origins and locales of their reptiles. Though given the market here in the states and interbreeding of different locales in varying species, I could see how it be almost nearly impossible to pin point their origins without the proper paperwork and records to prove it.
Thank you again for all the info!

[Derek Roddy]

Nice BHPs you have.

I've been keeping BHPs for about 14 years and have bred them for 11 now. I've also done a ton of research into our lines and what was "brought in" over the years.

One thing I can say for absolute certain is there are no verifiable locale animals anywhere in this country.

Sure, there are "west" animals, etc but...I'm not aware of any definite locale (like Pilbara for example) existing here in the US.

There were animals that were brought in from all over the western region. Wether or not those animals were from 3 miles away or 300 miles away is anybody's guess. Lots of variation can occur with-in a relativity short distance. I've got western animals....and some of them are very "Pilbara" looking in appearance but, when bred together....shows signs of being mixed locales....maybe from further north such as Sandfire or 80 mile beach.

Most of our founding BHPs were established in captive collections in the US from zoo line animals. Same for Europe and Australia for that matter.
In fact, the origin of the axanthic BHPs all over the world trace back to a founding zoo line in Aussie from Northern Territory animals.

Ironically enough, I have not been able to find any solid info on "eastern" animals or "queensland" animals anywhere in the US and from what I know from the lines that are here legally and not....they do not exist in the US.

I'm sure there may have been a few that came through but, knowing the time line (I've been watching BHPs on pricelist and talking to breeders since the mid 80s about these animals)....there just doesn't seem to be any around. None of our zoo lines were eastern animals and when the smuggling was going on....they were going after the smaller and more contrasted "western" animals.

Love the history of this species though. There is no other species that has held it's value as long as (in natural form) other than the Boelens.

D

[Derek Roddy]

I completely agree with you that it's a shame that most breeders here in the states don't keep or have records on the origins of their reptiles that have been imported (either legally or illegally). As both a huge reptile enthusiast and biology teacher, I would love to learn about these overlooked subtle differences between different locales in varying species much like the example you gave with the black tailed cribos ,womas, stimson's python, or ball pythons.

You're more than welcome to give me a shout at anytime. I have tons of "origin" info I could share with you.

Cheers,
D

[Derek Roddy]

There are other ways to differentiate, namely a single pair of parietal bones in western populations as opposed to two or three in other populations. In terms of difference you can actually readily see, western specimens have fewer subocular and loreal scales.

This is where people get confused looking at written info on line.

Actually, you can find every type of head scalation that occurs within BHPs in "west" aussie. The only place you see scalation differences is in the Southern Coastal Pilbara region. All of the animals in this area have single loreals, no sub oculars and one pair of Parietals.

Anywhere else in west aussie...they can appear just like any other BHP from any other part of Australia.

D

[MayerReptiles]

You're more than welcome to give me a shout at anytime. I have tons of "origin" info I could share with you.

Cheers,
D

Thank you very much! This is exactly why I joined these forums to meet people like you and Skiploder that help me learn more about these animals I love! It's quite fascinating to hear about your research in trying to find exact locales of your Australian snakes, especially tracing the origins of the axanthic mutation in the Black Headed Pythons back to a zoo line from Australia. Also love your website, very well put together, informative, and especially love the yellow jacket Black Headed Python you have shown there. I'm sure I will be messaging you soon for all my Black Headed Python and "origin" questions . Also, I've seen 3 lock-ups between the pair, so there may be a couple of incubation questions as well down the line since I've heard incubation of Black Headed Python eggs tend to be tricky.