Feeding Opinion/Advice

[MonkeyShuttle]

I have a lesser ball who eats like an aggressive colubrid! Eat live or thawed or wet dont matter. All i can say is all the politics aside...thawed gets boring . Sorry if i offend anyone but i love when they both know whats up and it becomes a wild west quick draw showdown. Can you guess whose got the quickest draw?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Slim]

F/T works well for some folks, and for those animals who will take F/T, feeding is as easy as falling off a rock. However, there is nothing wrong with feeding live, and as long as you know the risks, and manage them, your animals will be just fine.

[Crotalids]

It's all personal opinion, but I refuse to feed live, ever. I just don't like seeing animals die, and it's not needed in my opinion.

If they don't take ft, I will force feed. Been force feeding my male Malayan pit viper for 11 months now lol.

Of course by supervising them, that is being responsible. But if the feeder decides to bite, you cannot stop that. You can stop subsequent bites, but the initial one may prove fatal, or cause some serious damage.

It only takes a fraction of a second.

[BJK1995]

I'm honestly against live feeding in most cases. I feel that if you can avoid causing an animal pain or terror, it is our responsibility to feed f/t. Not to mention your animal can get hurt, or worst. Even when they're being supervised things can happen quickly and the damage will already be done. I realize there are cases where an animal just won't take f/t right away, so in that instance you'd have to feed live so the animal won't go hungry. That doesnt mean you should give up on f/t though, all the snakes I work with come around eventually.

As pet owners and human beings we really ought to make the process less painful, honestly. These animals do hunt in the wild but the fact is our pets aren't in the wild, they're in our care.

I won't chastises owners who feed live. It's their animal and their choice. But if something goes wrong, which is indeed possible, the blame is on them. I'm not willing to risk or bare that guilt, or my animals well-being.


Sent from my iPod touch using Tapatalk

[satomi325]

Nothing is wrong with live.

Whether its live or f/t, there are pros and cons to both. There are risks to f/t and there are risks to live. You just have to be responsible and feed what ever works for you and your animals. And some snakes will never switch to F/T. I have done hundreds of live feedings with no issue.
And a snake coil, in my personal opinion based on working in a research lab, is more humane than CO2. A snake coil will kill a rodent faster than a CO2 chamber. A coil stimulates endorphins in the prey animal that does dull the pain receptors and cause less stress. Not to mention, the coil itself cuts of blood circulation and does numb the animal.


Some responsible live feeding tips:

1) Feed the appropriate size food. I like smaller and more frequent meals than larger and less often. Weanlings and small rats are safe and harmless(to some extent). They're also not as conscious to danger as an adult would be. Adult rats can pack a nasty bite and are much stronger at fighting back, which is why "smaller and more frequent" is the way to go. The bite of a small rat is no where close to that of an adult. I feed all of my adults ball pythons weaned/small rats once a week. And multiple smalls for the big girls. A medium size would be the max appropriate size for a ball python. If you're feeding adult mice, try feeding rats of the equivalent size. They are pups and much more harmless than an adult mouse.

2) Keep the feeder well fed and hydrated. They're less likely to see your snake as food. Hungry rats are dangerous rats. They will eat your snake if left unattended for extended periods of time. This is the reason for most snake killing incidences.

3) Don't dangle the live feeder. This puts them in panic mode. A freaked out feeder is a dangerous feeder. Gently place the feeder into your enclosure. Calm feeders are good.

4) Monitor your feedings and keep a tool, such as tongs, on hand to assist your snake in case the feeder tries to bite down. I use a chop stick to stick in the feeder's mouth if its in a bad position.

5) Don't keep the feeder in with your snake longer than 30 mins max or so. Some people have a shorter time frame. If he doesn't eat within that time frame, take out the feeder and save it for next week.

[BJK1995]

Nothing is wrong with live.

Whether its live or f/t, there are pros and cons to both. There are risks to f/t and there are risks to live. You just have to be responsible and feed what ever works for you and your animals. And some snakes will never switch to F/T. I have done hundreds of live feedings with no issue.
And a snake coil, in my personal opinion based on working in a research lab, is more humane than CO2. A snake coil will kill a rodent faster than a CO2 chamber. A coil stimulates endorphins in the prey animal that does dull the pain receptors and cause less stress. Not to mention, the coil itself cuts of blood circulation and does numb the animal.

We're obviously not going to agree over f/t vs live, but I'd definitely have to say that CO2 is more humane than being coiled. When done correctly, only a small flow of CO2 is supposed to be flow in the chamber so that the rodents fall asleep before they are exposed to the higher levels, which can cause panic. Here is the official guidelines on the procedure.
http://oacu.od.nih.gov/ARAC/document...asia_Adult.pdf

Also cutting that much blood flow creates a high pressure, and I've seen rodents eyeballs basically pop out of their head from all that squeezing. It basically sends them in cardiac arrest. I just prefer them not to experience that sort of terror if I could help it.

I think a better argument to be made for those in favor of live feeding is the fact some places just freeze their feeders alive to sell f/t. I've heard horror stories about how some places were caught throwing hundreds of mice in sealed packaging and then tossed in large freezers I'd definitely take the constriction over that any day.

[satomi325]

I'm no stranger to CO2 euthanasia protocol. I partake in it regularly as we euthanize our own research animals in the lab via CO2. I also euthanize excess rats that I breed via CO2 as well. But its just my personal opinion that the snakes, in general, do a better job based on my experience with both methods.

CO2 is not painless even when the rodents do loose consciousness before suffocating. CO2 does sting the eyes and nose. And incorrect use of CO2 like using pre charged chambers, incorrect flow rate, or dry ice is inhumane and the animals do panic and feel pain. Do you know if the commercial breeders who freeze hundreds of rodents every day pre charge their chambers or care about flow rate? I really don't know, but certainly something to think about.

And depending on the age of rodent, it is humane to freeze rodents under 2 weeks of age. They are resistant to hypoxia, thus can survive a CO2 chamber. Freezing is the most effective towards pinks since they have poor temperature management and will die quickly. Anything older than 2 weeks need to be euthanized via cervical dislocation or CO2. It is inhumane otherwise.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[BJK1995]

I'm no stranger to CO2 euthanasia protocol. I partake in it regularly as we euthanize our own research animals in the lab via CO2. I also euthanize excess rats that I breed via CO2 as well. But its just my personal opinion that the snakes, in general, do a better job based on my experience with both methods.

CO2 is not painless even when the rodents do loose consciousness before suffocating. CO2 does sting the eyes and nose. And incorrect use of CO2 like using pre charged chambers, incorrect flow rate, or dry ice is inhumane and the animals do panic and feel pain. Do you know if the commercial breeders who freeze hundreds of rodents every day pre charge their chambers or care about flow rate? I really don't know, but certainly something to think about.

Good points, I'm convinced then. I didn't mean to make seem as if you weren't familiar with these CO2 procedures, I had already assumed you knew them because you mentioned your lab work. I was just posting them for OP's reference, I apologize if that came off the wrong way. I still prefer f/t only because I don't want to be responsible if my animal were to be injured because of me or if the animal were to slip up, although they are obviously extremely efficient in what they do haha

[satomi325]

No worries. Like I said, just feed what works for you and your animals. There is no one 'right' way. However, there are responsible and irresponsible methods to both.

My point for my initial post was neither live or f/t was risk free. And its OK to feed whatever as long as you do it responsibly.

A snake can die being fed an improperly thawed out f/t. If the core or a feeder is still cold, the snake can go into a system shock. And sadly, some folks have lost their animals from improper f/t feeding and not being vigilante enough.


Everyone knows the risk of live, but there are ways to keep that risk down to a minimum. (Like that list I posted is a good start and practice)

And in regards to feeders, I just personally find a snake coil as humane as CO2. I love my rats and don't want them to suffer unnecessarily.

Anyway. Feed what works for you and your animal. Be aware and responsible folks.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[OctagonGecko729]

The majority of the time my ASFs are dead within 15 seconds of being constricted. I definitely would agree from my own experience that constriction is more humane most of the time then gassing. However, it most certainly can drag out to over a minute or two if the prey is either too small or too large. Too large of prey can also pose a risk to the BP as it takes a while for the animal to die it can fight more in the BPs coils. My ASFs rarely even kick when they get coiled.