no pest strip question

[Neal]

I'm in no way trying to stir up something but just because the vet is a vet doesn't mean he knows everything. Certain chemicals which aren't lethal to mammals pose a severe risk to reptiles.

Then instead of using products meant for the specific issue you're dealing with people tend to cut corners then down the road they end up with an issue. I'm not saying you will but it's come up more than once in my 5 years of being a member of this forum.

Bed bugs/scabies isn't snake mites, and the fact you're having to retreat everything again proves that the stuff isn't doing the job it's needed to do. A lot of that stuff only kills stuff on contact, that's not eliminating the eggs and it's not solving your problem. By the time you try all these cheaper methods that are way less effective you would of spent less actually ordering the stuff that's meant to do the job and it would of cost you less from the get go.

While you may even kill the mites on the snake, are you preventing the ones that aren't on the snake that have started crawling around looking for a new host? NO, because nothing you're using is created for that. Mites can go between baseboards, on the walls, up the walls, anywhere you could possibly thing. PAM works by creating a barrier. You have to use the right tools for the job.

That's like if I'm a carpenter and I need to put some nails in the wood, sure I could use a brick, a 2x4, a baseball bat. The fact is that it's not the right tool for the job.

Another example, two pet stores, one clean and the other filthy, well you decide that since the dirtier pet store has rodents $3 cheaper you get from there. Then the next thing you know you end up with a dead snake or a snake with an illness and then you've got an expensive vet bill. All I'm trying to get at is if it were regarding yourself or your children would you cut corners? NO, then why do it for your pets? They rely on you to take care of them because they can't.

[Neal]

This is something I found a few years ago which I remember when I was typing the soap comment:

"The word permethrin is a generic name of a group of pyrethroid chemical isomers. This is like saying everything with the word soap is the same thing. Put your wet hand into a box of powdered laundry detergent and see if it is the same as a bar of ivory, but they are both "soap".

Without exception, these other products use a much more toxic isomer as they are all designed to be applied to material that maybe will have the potential for contact with mammals, which have a completely different physiology than reptiles do. These products are designed to be as toxic as possible to get a quick "knock down". These higher toxicities will not harm mammals, but are documented to harm lower vertebrates, including reptiles, fish, amphibians, mollusks and so forth and therefore can be used for these other uses. Also, only a very small percentage of what is in the can is the "active" ingredient, the rest is always a trade secret of the company, so will never be disclosed (only the generic active name has to be disclosed under EPA regulations). Different isomers have differing toxicities and again, only a range of the cis-trans ratio is given on a label, so one can never find out what is really in the can (again trade secret).

Since a product is only approved by the EPA for the uses listed on the label, chemicals in the formula that are not toxic to the host for the testing submitted, doesn't mean they would not be toxic to a host not listed. In fact many of the "inerts" used in these permethrin formulas are toxic to reptiles. If the company tried to receive EPA approval with these formulas for use on reptiles, they would not, as the EPA would not allow a product to be sold that would harm the host listed on the label. This is why the EPA regulations state that it is a federal offense to sell or use a product inconsistent with the label, not only because of the risk to the host, but also because such usage can create resistance.

[schoch79]

Good points neal. Up until your earlier posts I didn't realize that PAM created a barrier. Your argument for not cutting corners on myself or kids is flawed however. I would, and many others will and do, cut corners with themselves and family. That is why there are so many alternative medicine type books, teaching, threads and so on out there. In fact lice shampoo is a clearly accepted treatment for lice but I have heard of people suffocating lice instead by using greasy type products, and it works just fine. Of course that is just one example but I'm sure everyone here has there own knowledge of home cures for things. I'm not making an argument against PAM and in fact already ordered some. The argument I make is against your ---only one product should be used for mites and all others are garbage---type statements. If that's not what you intended I apologize for my assumptions. Again, I don't want nor do I have any ill feelings, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents on your response, hehe. Have a good day.

[Neal]

Good points neal. Up until your earlier posts I didn't realize that PAM created a barrier. Your argument for not cutting corners on myself or kids is flawed however. I would, and many others will and do, cut corners with themselves and family. That is why there are so many alternative medicine type books, teaching, threads and so on out there. In fact lice shampoo is a clearly accepted treatment for lice but I have heard of people suffocating lice instead by using greasy type products, and it works just fine. Of course that is just one example but I'm sure everyone here has there own knowledge of home cures for things. I'm not making an argument against PAM and in fact already ordered some. The argument I make is against your ---only one product should be used for mites and all others are garbage---type statements. If that's not what you intended I apologize for my assumptions. Again, I don't want nor do I have any ill feelings, I just wanted to put in my 2 cents on your response, hehe. Have a good day.

I'm not saying all the other stuff that can be used to treat mites is garbage. I'm stating that like rid and nix aren't meant for mites. While they have permethrin, what people don't understand is permethrin is a broad descrption of chemical compound basically. It's not meant for mites and there could be long term side affects. I'm saying that when you spend $200 on a snake, you shouldn't cut corners in treatment for a snake regardless the price. A pet owners responsibility should be the animals health first because that animal is relying on you to take care of itself. The other stuff they sell doesn't work, it's that simple. I've used reptile relief/spray before and while I've had luck with it before I'm not this go around. It's not the best thing on the market either, PAM is.

The cutting corners for children thing was meant more towards treatment. If your kid almost cuts off his finger, are you going to just tape it? NO, you would seek the proper help to remedy the situation. If not then that's irresponsible. That's all I meant.

EDIT:
And I'm not calling people who use nix or any of that irresponsible. I was saying that if your kid almost cut his finger off and you wouldn't seek medical help that makes you irresponsible.

[schoch79]

ILOL, well put. I do care about my snakes and if/when this doesn't work I will be using PAM. I have no problems with using it and in fact its not even expensive. Basically I was trying to use some of the other stuff because it was the first thing I came across. In fact when I was first looking around I wanted to stay away from chemicals completely and I had my heart set on predatory mites that would eat snake mites. From what I remember reading the live pretty well in reptile enclosures and in my opinion would be the least invasive way to treat the snakes. Anyway, I guess this is a dead subject now. Thanks again for everything.

[Neal]

ILOL, well put. I do care about my snakes and if/when this doesn't work I will be using PAM. I have no problems with using it and in fact its not even expensive. Basically I was trying to use some of the other stuff because it was the first thing I came across. In fact when I was first looking around I wanted to stay away from chemicals completely and I had my heart set on predatory mites that would eat snake mites. From what I remember reading the live pretty well in reptile enclosures and in my opinion would be the least invasive way to treat the snakes. Anyway, I guess this is a dead subject now. Thanks again for everything.

Predatory mites could work, I know some people that have used them. I just wouldn't, unless it was a last resort. I was more or less referring to using PAM over other mite treatments, not predatory mites.

[snakeman13]

Ok so I'm fighting mites now for a few weeks with some sprays and stuff from the pet store. I did as everyone here says to do. Took out the substrate, cleaned everything and so on. Anyway, none of that worked so now I'm trying the pest strips. I want to try to make sure the room they are in is free'd of them so I left the strip whole and hung the strip in the room a few feet from the enclosure. I did this about 12 hours ago and just went to check on things but still see moving, alive mites on my snake. How long should I expect things to take doing it this way? I would just cut a piece off of the strip and put it and the snake in a small tub but ultimately the problem is still in the room and the process will just repeat itself. Maybe I'll end up doing that too but the answer I need is in regards to my current method please......Thanks in advance.

Pest strips/vapona strips work awesome.
I have them hanging in my snake rooms and rat room all the time.
I have had both snakes and rodents get mites. Nest mites on rodents are a horror.
They don't stay on the rodents. They like us too.
I tried the PAM and other stuff. Problem kept returning.
I started using the strips, problem went away and does not come back.
I have now been using this method for 5 years. No problems at all.
All snakes and rodents are clean and healthy.
It will take about a week to 10 days of exposure to the strips fumes, for all the mites to die.
The other really good thing about this method, the eggs die as well.

regards
John