Lucy question

[dr del]

I hatched a super lesser BEL this year - her eyes are fine.

[satomi325]

Jeremy at Fireball Reptiles have hatched bug eyes Super Lessers.

As for prevelence of bug eyes, it seems fairly common, but I don't have any clutch data. I think Jerry had a few bug eyed supers, or maybe he knew someone who did...(his username is snakesrkewl if you wanted to pm him directly)]

Jerry has normal looking eyed Supers, but two out of three of them are blind.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

[Pythonfriend]

Hi


If you want to breed very clean and very white Blue Eye Lucys, i strongly advise against super lessers / super butters / lesser butters.

Why? Well, you have many different ways to make them, and only one of these many options has known genetic health issues.

Since super lesser, super butter, and the mixed version lesser+butter show the same eye issue i assume both genes to be identical, two equivalent lines of the same morph with different names. If they would really be different, it would be a big coincidence that the lesser butter has the same eye issue. (for comparison: super cinnamon and super black pastel both can have duckbill or spine kinks, but the cinnamon black pastel does not show these genetic issues and also looks different).

You can make very clean blue-eye lucys with the following combinations:

- lesser/butter + mojave
- lesser/butter + mystic
- lesser/butter + phantom
- lesser/butter + het russo
- lesser/butter + mocha
- Russo leucistic, the super-form of "het russo".
- possibly more combinations using one copy of russo and one of the other genes

Many of these are not on WOBP with a picture, because they look identical. If the combo is listed on WOBP, but there is no picture, you can assume WOBP rejected the pictures because they look too identical to any other clean BEL.

All of these are very white, and none of these show the genetic eye problem. It doesnt seem to be a big deal for a ball python to be blind, blind BPs live good lifes and only sometimes fail to strike their food item on first try. But still, why risk it if it can so easily be avoided?

Also, there are the BELs that are not completely white. You get them by combining two of these genes without using lesser or butter, or by making a super-form of any of these other genes. (Well, except for Russo, here the super is perfectly white).

For example: Mystic potion:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/mystic-potion/

Enchi mystic potion:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/mo...e-corcra-ball/

Super phantom:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/super-phantom/

Latte = super mocha:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/latte/ damn, they deleted the pictures.... Its almost white but with residual pattern and areas that almost look transparent or lavender-like.

Leche= phantom mocha:
http://www.worldofballpythons.com/morphs/leche/

So, if you just want a very white nice-looking and healthy BEL, the cheapest and easiest way would be to go for lesser/butter + mojave.

You can even mass-produce these very white BELs, and still avoid the eye issue, for example: Breed lesser to mojave to get lesser mojave BEL, breed mojave to mojave to get super mojave BEL. Now you can breed lesser mojave to super mojave and get clutches that will be 50% super-clean BELs in the form of lesser mojaves, and 50% of the grey-headed super mojaves. More of both, no normals or single-gene animals in the clutch. Rinse, repeat. Now you can breed lesser mojave to super mystic, 50% will be very clean white lesser mystics, and the other half will be those awesome mystic potions.

[galequin]

I got some lesser x lesser eggs cooking right now, let ya know how it turns out, still a month n a half to go.

Would love to see those when the hatch!

[snakesRkewl]

Jerry has normal looking eyed Supers, but two out of three of them are blind.

Yep, eyes appear weird looking but shaped correctly.
The snakes have no response to movement and constantly rub on their tubs.
I won't do super lesser/butters again, mojo X lesser maybe, but no super lesser/butters for me.

[don15681]

Yep, eyes appear weird looking but shaped correctly.
The snakes have no response to movement and constantly rub on their tubs.
I won't do super lesser/butters again, mojo X lesser maybe, but no super lesser/butters for me.

I also won't do super lesser/butter combo either. I've done super Mojave and lesser to Mojave without any issues. next I'll be doing phantom to lesser to produce a karma

[OhhWatALoser]

You can make very clean blue-eye lucys with the following combinations:

- lesser/butter + mojave there are cases of some yellowing out
- lesser/butter + mystic Dorsal stripe can be seen on some and some yellow out
- lesser/butter + phantom Dorsal stripe can be seen on some and some yellow out
- lesser/butter + het russo
- lesser/butter + mocha Dorsal stripe can be seen on some
- Russo leucistic, the super-form of "het russo".Dorsal stripe can be seen on some, in my experience seen on most

im not saying lesser/butter x lesser/butter are always pure white either, just some combos listed have a tendency not to be pure white, white diamond being the worst offender from what I have seen.

[Pythonfriend]

im not saying lesser/butter x lesser/butter are always pure white either, just some combos listed have a tendency not to be pure white, white diamond being the worst offender from what I have seen.

Yes you may be right there. I dont doubt it. Still, if even super lessers / super butters / lesser butters can have residual dorsal stripe, isnt it worth it to go for an alternative just to avoid producing blind BPs?

For pure white go for all-white pied. I think BEL white doesnt quite beat pied white. Lesser piebalds often are all-white snakes. I think apart from the commonly discussed pigments, ball pythons also have a white pigment, which fluoresces under UV light, and i think piebalds have a lot of it.

EDIT: and i think the BEL complex is good at stripping pigments and leaving the white pigment, but maybe doesnt add to the white pigment?

[sharkrocket]

So my major question is, are the bug eyes just a phenotype thing, or can they pass on their bug eyes to offspring?

If you have a bug eyed super lesser and breed it to a perfectly healthy normal, will its offspring have bug eyes?

[Pythonfriend]

So my major question is, are the bug eyes just a phenotype thing, or can they pass on their bug eyes to offspring?

If you have a bug eyed super lesser and breed it to a perfectly healthy normal, will its offspring have bug eyes?

Only the super lesser, super butter, or the combined super (lesser + butter) are afflicted wth this curse.

You can breed a super lesser to a normal and will get 100% healthy single-gene lessers. The problem does not occur unless one snake has two copies of the gene. And parents affected by it will produce perfectly healthy offspring, given that the offspring only gets one copy of the gene, not two.

So if you do the right pairings, you can breed blind super lessers / super butters, and produce perfectly healthy non-blind offspring. You can still use these for breeding, and you can work around it and avoid producing any more snakes that go blind. So i would say no, its not hereditary.

EDIT: By the way, its not the only case.... duckbill or spine kinks in super cinnamon/super black pastel are similar. Thats why some breeders keep and continue breeding some defective animals hidden deep inside their collections, because with the right pairings all offspring will be just fine.