Live vs. frozen

[treeboa]

All I said was that it was safer to feed frozen and explained why. It was then assumed that I meant never feed live, f/t is 100% failsafe, and was criticizing anyone who feeds live. If I'm not mistaken others who took offense are the ones who claimed accidents with live prey ONLY happen when people are irresponsible and used scare tactics about f/t talking about snakes puking and dying from eating popsicles. Mentioning that snakes have been maimed and killed by rodents is part of educating a newbie and it would be irresponsible NOT to mention it, although in the future I should remember to mention thoroughly thawing f/t too because that is a very valid point. Telling them that responsibly feeding live is perfectly safe without telling them exactly what can happen is not giving them all the information either. I've never intentionally left a rodent capable of inflicting injury for a prolonged time with any snake, but I'm not perfect. I once left a "fuzzy"" in a bag with a non-feeding Boa for a couple hours. Fuzzies are harmless right? Well the pet store didn't say how old the mouse was and it turned out to be a runt hopper and chewed the Boa from head to tail. I had to euthanize it. Last year I was feeding a rack full of 37 hatchling Jungle Carpets and Balls. The Balls were all eating live small adult mice. When I went to check on them to see if they ate, I overlooked one Ball's shoebox. That one didn't happen to eat and when I discovered it the snake was pretty much eaten and both snake and mouse were dead. First one my fault? Maybe/maybe not. Second one my fault? Definitely! but not laziness or ignorance, an oversight/mistake. My experience and an example, not a scare tactic. As for giving opinions, that is what the OP asked for. That what I did. That's what others did. I have no problem with anyone deciding to feed live. Like I said, there are many good reasons for doing it. When dealing with snakes that can be tricky feeders like Balls, it's inevitable that, unless you only have one or two, you are going to have some that insist on live. Some staunch f/t feeders can't deal with that and will even half-starve their snakes before feeding live. I'm not one of those. The rodents a feeder. It's going to meet it's end one way or another. to me being constricted is no more or less cruel than being gassed in a bucket. If my snakes insist on live, they get it. Everyone does have to decide for themselves. My advice to the OP was coming from my opinion that it's easier and more convenient with three snakes to feed f/t instead buying expensive live rodents from a pet shop or going through the hassle of raising your own and yes, I'm sorry I feel it's safer. That's just my opinion and everyone else is welcome to theirs. This is a public forum after all. My only problem with anyone on this thread was them putting words in my mouth and assigning motives that weren't there.

[Mike41793]

It's not safer to feed f/t, that is false. If thats your opinion, then you must label it as such. I personally disagree. Both examples you mentioned were your fault. A user error doesn't mean its safer to feed f/t.

[PitOnTheProwl]

All I said was that it was safer to feed frozen and explained why. It was then assumed that I meant never feed live, f/t is 100% failsafe, and was criticizing anyone who feeds live. If I'm not mistaken others who took offense are the ones who claimed accidents with live prey ONLY happen when people are irresponsible and used scare tactics about f/t talking about snakes puking and dying from eating popsicles. Mentioning that snakes have been maimed and killed by rodents is part of educating a newbie and it would be irresponsible NOT to mention it, although in the future I should remember to mention thoroughly thawing f/t too because that is a very valid point. Telling them that responsibly feeding live is perfectly safe without telling them exactly what can happen is not giving them all the information either. .

Okay so if feeding f/t is 100% failsafe as you say, then why would you have to explain to someone how to properly thaw the rat or mouse?

We each have our own way of doing things and what works in my house might not work in yours.
The bottom line on feeding depends on the person and what they want to do.

Frozen: thawed and heated to a useable internal temp, drop and go, then trash is not eaten (some people re-freeze to reuse BUT I wouldn't)

Live: pick appropriate size rodent for snake, drop in and move on to next tub, check on tubs with live in them and return uneaten rodents back to rat/mouse racks.


*****I will say it again: A bite or two can and is nature at work. If a mouse/rat tried to eat your snake then you are bottom line a special kind and haven't listened to anyone here in this site ever!!! It doesn't matter on the size of the feeder, I feed everything from pinky to medium and have never had a problem. It is not natural for a feeder to try to eat its host unless it is left in the tub way too long with no food or water.*****

The are my thoughts, my truths, and my laws....................... take them as you will

[treeboa]

It's not safer to feed f/t, that is false. If thats your opinion, then you must label it as such. I personally disagree. Both examples you mentioned were your fault. A user error doesn't mean its safer to feed f/t.

Everything on a public forum is an opinion, that's the nature of a forum. Because no one's perfect, accidents happen. If the rodent's dead, there's zero chance for error if you do things right. If the rodents live things can happen even if the snake constricts it as the post below yours mentions. User error and the fact that the snake can still be hurt DOES mean it's safer to feed f/t. And no I didn't expressly say in my first post it was my opinion, but then in your post you made two statements as fact and didn't expressly say it either.

[Mike41793]

Ok if you don't think it was your fault then i guess that is your opinion. From what you said, all evidence would indicate it was your fault though lol.

Ask rabernet about her feedings. Shes said before that out of 20K plus live feedings, she can count on one hand the number of times something serious has happened. Imo, the risk of messing up feeding f/t is about the same percentage. Therefore, neither one is safer than the other. Im not stating that as an opinion, its a fact that both have a certain amount of risk involved that makes them equally risky. If you wanna say one is better than the other, thats fine though, idrc.

[treeboa]

Okay so if feeding f/t is 100% failsafe as you say, then why would you have to explain to someone how to properly thaw the rat or mouse?

We each have our own way of doing things and what works in my house might not work in yours.
The bottom line on feeding depends on the person and what they want to do.

Frozen: thawed and heated to a useable internal temp, drop and go, then trash is not eaten (some people re-freeze to reuse BUT I wouldn't)

Live: pick appropriate size rodent for snake, drop in and move on to next tub, check on tubs with live in them and return uneaten rodents back to rat/mouse racks.


*****I will say it again: A bite or two can and is nature at work. If a mouse/rat tried to eat your snake then you are bottom line a special kind and haven't listened to anyone here in this site ever!!! It doesn't matter on the size of the feeder, I feed everything from pinky to medium and have never had a problem. It is not natural for a feeder to try to eat its host unless it is left in the tub way too long with no food or water.*****

The are my thoughts, my truths, and my laws....................... take them as you will

Again, words in my mouth. I did Not say f/t was failsafe. The opposite as a matter of fact. I, also, never said never feed live, in fact I said I do both. My point of sharing my experiences was to show that anyone can screw up. Congratulations if you're perfect, you're unique. You say you've never had a problem, but then say a bite or two is fine as long as the snake doesn't get eaten. I don't agree. I think it is a problem and is the very reason for my opinion. I will never have to treat a bite from a f/t rodent. And as far as putting a fuzzy in a bag to get a non-feeder to eat, that's in all the BP books written by people with a hell of a lot more experience than me, you, or most on this forum. It was a unique situation and, to me, proves that accidents can happen even if you do everything right. And by the way if the OP was a complete newbie and needed to hear the way to safely feed live, you are the first to type it. It took 20-some post and what..2 days and was only done somewhat sarcastically to prove a point. Nice!

[bcr229]

Interesting discussion. I had to take one of my snakes to the vet this week (SEAVS in Fairfax, VA) and got grilled on my husbandry practices. They very strongly recommend f/t over live, as they see quite a few snakes badly hurt by live feeders (probably by folks who don't read this site!). They haven't seen a snake that had to be treated because it ate a f/t feeder that was still cold in the middle. Of course, that may also mean the snake didn't survive - hence no vet visit - but take it for what you will.
I have no problem feeding live, but prefer f/t as life gets hectic with running two home-based businesses. I do worry at some point I will get distracted by a phone call, unexpected customer, child, etc. with a live feeder in a tub. If I could be assured of having several hours where I wasn't interrupted it would be different.

[treeboa]

I've been doing this for 22 years. At the beginning I fed only live for several reasons. As I've said repeatedly I DO feed live. I, too, have only had a handful of incidents with live. On the other hand I've had 0 incidents with f/t. I've been part of three herp societies and been on various forums since they've existed (Since what 97-98?) I've never even heard second hand of anyone screwing up f/t. I know it happens, that's why it's written about in books and magazines. You have no basis for your view on f/t accidents happening as much as live feeding, it is not a fact.

[Mike41793]

I've been doing this for 22 years. At the beginning I fed only live for several reasons. As I've said repeatedly I DO feed live. I, too, have only had a handful of incidents with live. On the other hand I've had 0 incidents with f/t. I've been part of three herp societies and been on various forums since they've existed (Since what 97-98?) I've never even heard second hand of anyone screwing up f/t. I know it happens, that's why it's written about in books and magazines. You have no basis for your view on f/t accidents happening as much as live feeding, it is not a fact.

I didn't say that they happen the same amount, I said they're equally risky.

And you wouldn't know if you killed your snake with f/t, thats why you don't see stories of it really. (i've never seen one either). How many owners/breeders get autopsies done on dead snakes to determine what killed them though? You wouldn't know what killed it, unless you had an autopsy done to determine the cod was an improperly thawed rodent. Not a ton of breeders would be that willing to do that, they'd probably just write it off as something else.

[satomi325]

Pros and Cons to both methods. Both can be equally dangerous or just as safe. There is no one right way. Do what works for you. Period.


But if anyone really wanted to, just search for the threads. I know I've seen a few where snakes have died from improper F/T here on this forum. I specifically recall seeing a thread where the OP fed a frozen(or semi thawed feeder at best) to their Boa because they idiotically didn't know they were suppose to heat it up. The snake died. Temperature shock to the system I believe....

And I know for a fact that the many live feeder related deaths and half eaten snakes on this particular forum are from human error and leaving the feeder unattended for extended periods of time without food. The keepers admitted it as such. The feeder was left long enough to get hungry and go for the only other thing in the enclosure.

Some people are uneducated and don't know proper feeding techniques for both live and f/t. That's where you get the most feeding errors and injured/dead snakes.

Be knowledgeable and vigilant.

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