Substrata from Lowes

[Skiploder]

Correct--pine and cedar for sure and probably other similar woods have resins which are toxic to some animals including reptiles.

Thanks for letting me know!

I've been using pine for almost 30 years - I feel so blessed I found this out in time. I can't imagine the pain and suffering I've caused my animals!

[Kaorte]

Before you buy any Substrate from homedepot read post HELP 5 random balls just up and died listed in forms ball pythons, general BPs, normal threads. The reward might not be worth the risk

The guy doesn't even know if it was actually the substrate. It also happened over 2 months ago. I'm not going to run away from other substrate options because one person might have gotten a contaminated bag of aspen from a completely different store.

[Steve-o M]

Your right it was not determined what killed the snakes. But the substrate was a common factor. I read your post then saw his just wanted to give you a heads up, would'nt want to see anything happen to your BP

[achilles_crutch]

ive been using lowes cypress for going on 3 yrs, 20-30 snakes. i have not had any problems whatsoever, it does come pretty wet so drying it out a bit isnt a bad idea.

this is what we have here:http://www.mulchmfg.com/specs/cypressrose.php

its like 8ish dollars for 3cu

[nighttrain_1991]

Thanks for letting me know!

I've been using pine for almost 30 years - I feel so blessed I found this out in time. I can't imagine the pain and suffering I've caused my animals!

Dr. Richard Evans, a veterinary pathologist who is also associated with the Orange County (CA) Department of Public Health, responded to this question by discussing laboratory findings and practical experience in the use of cedar shavings as has been found by study and anecdotal evidence involving rodents, cage birds and poultry.
Dr. Evans states that the extracts of cedar and other soft woods, such as pine, contain a number of aromatic (volatile) compounds including hydrocarbons, cedrene and cadrol. Naphthalene (the active ingredient in moth balls) is also a member but is a distinct compound.
These compounds are known irritants of skin, and cause not only irritation, but the degeneration and death of the cells in the respiratory tract. Once this destruction is set in motion, the animals' defensive barrier is eroded, enabling infection by various microorganisms and secondary microbial infections of the lungs. The medical literature notes increased rates of respiratory infections found in poultry which is raised with cedar shavings in the poultry house. Owners of caged birds have noted similar infection rates, particularly in poorly ventilated areas.
In addition to the skin irritation and respiratory tract damage, these compounds activate enzymes in the liver which results in abnormal metabolism of certain drugs, something especially critical for animals undergoing antibiotic therapy or surgery.
Dr. Evans notes that there is also some evidence to indicate that reproductive rates may be affected, and cancers promoted, through prolonged contact with these compounds. And, as with any other chemical or disease condition, the very young and very old are especially at risk.
Symptoms of irritation include clear to discolored fluids discharged from eyes and nose (which may be mistaken for a regular microbial respiratory infection), sneezing, coughing, constant blinking or other signs of light sensitivity, irregular breathing (dyspnea) and possibly regurgitation. In severe cases, the animal may fall unconscious with or without convulsions. Secondary bacterial, viral and fungal infections are all the more likely to attack once the cells of the respiratory system are damaged and destroyed.
While reptiles and amphibians are not birds or rodents, this is nonetheless important for herpetoculturists. If a rodent or bird skin becomes irritated through fur and feathers, think how much faster that may occur in a furless and featherless reptile or amphibian. Snakes and lizards frequently burrow into their shavings substrate, becoming completely covered by the material, breathing air through the layers of piled up shavings.
With the similarity of the symptoms of cedar toxicity to other common reptile ailments, it is easy to see why toxicity may go undiagnosed. We will never know just how much that housing breeders on cedar may have affected their reproductive success, nor how many recurrent respiratory infections are due to other than stress and too-cool temperatures conditions in the animal's enclosure.
Based on the studies that implicate the compounds from cedar in allergic and respiratory diseases as well as the impact on liver enzymes, it seems it may well be prudent to avoid cedar shavings as bedding or litter, especially since alternatives are available.
With pine shavings, the problem isn't as clear cut. Pine shavings emit similar volatile compounds as cedar, but the risks aren't clear. It is thought that heat treating pine shavings may reduce the levels of aromatic hydrocarbons that have been implicated as a potential concern, so that products such as kiln dried pine are safe (many pet products are heat treated).

Since there are so many alternatives that aren't linked or even rumored to be problematic I see no reason to take the risk of using pine or cedar, but thank you for sharing your years of experience. Perhaps you would also share the advantage of pine over the other alternatives for substrate that make it so useful.

[Kaorte]

Your right it was not determined what killed the snakes. But the substrate was a common factor. I read your post then saw his just wanted to give you a heads up, would'nt want to see anything happen to your BP

No the substrate was a suspected factor. Unless it was determined that it was the substrate that killed those animals, which is very unlikely in my opinion, I will continue to use bedding from whichever source I need to.

Even if it was the substrate, it was likely a very isolated occurrence. I did already read the thread and of course I wouldn't want to just kill my snakes, but I think it was more likely a husbandry error. Even if the bedding was contaminated, it shouldn't kill them that quickly. It is much more likely that it was a temperature spike or heating element failure.


What I am looking for is people who have experience buying and using wood from lowes or home depot. The pine doesn't concern me too much but I would prefer to get pure cypress mulch.

[Skiploder]

Dr. Richard Evans, a veterinary pathologist who is also associated with the Orange County (CA) Department of Public Health, responded to this question by discussing laboratory findings and practical experience in the use of cedar shavings as has been found by study and anecdotal evidence involving rodents, cage birds and poultry.
Dr. Evans states that the extracts of cedar and other soft woods, such as pine, contain a number of aromatic (volatile) compounds including hydrocarbons, cedrene and cadrol. Naphthalene (the active ingredient in moth balls) is also a member but is a distinct compound.
These compounds are known irritants of skin, and cause not only irritation, but the degeneration and death of the cells in the respiratory tract. Once this destruction is set in motion, the animals' defensive barrier is eroded, enabling infection by various microorganisms and secondary microbial infections of the lungs. The medical literature notes increased rates of respiratory infections found in poultry which is raised with cedar shavings in the poultry house. Owners of caged birds have noted similar infection rates, particularly in poorly ventilated areas.
In addition to the skin irritation and respiratory tract damage, these compounds activate enzymes in the liver which results in abnormal metabolism of certain drugs, something especially critical for animals undergoing antibiotic therapy or surgery.
Dr. Evans notes that there is also some evidence to indicate that reproductive rates may be affected, and cancers promoted, through prolonged contact with these compounds. And, as with any other chemical or disease condition, the very young and very old are especially at risk.
Symptoms of irritation include clear to discolored fluids discharged from eyes and nose (which may be mistaken for a regular microbial respiratory infection), sneezing, coughing, constant blinking or other signs of light sensitivity, irregular breathing (dyspnea) and possibly regurgitation. In severe cases, the animal may fall unconscious with or without convulsions. Secondary bacterial, viral and fungal infections are all the more likely to attack once the cells of the respiratory system are damaged and destroyed.
While reptiles and amphibians are not birds or rodents, this is nonetheless important for herpetoculturists. If a rodent or bird skin becomes irritated through fur and feathers, think how much faster that may occur in a furless and featherless reptile or amphibian. Snakes and lizards frequently burrow into their shavings substrate, becoming completely covered by the material, breathing air through the layers of piled up shavings.
With the similarity of the symptoms of cedar toxicity to other common reptile ailments, it is easy to see why toxicity may go undiagnosed. We will never know just how much that housing breeders on cedar may have affected their reproductive success, nor how many recurrent respiratory infections are due to other than stress and too-cool temperatures conditions in the animal's enclosure.
Based on the studies that implicate the compounds from cedar in allergic and respiratory diseases as well as the impact on liver enzymes, it seems it may well be prudent to avoid cedar shavings as bedding or litter, especially since alternatives are available.
With pine shavings, the problem isn't as clear cut. Pine shavings emit similar volatile compounds as cedar, but the risks aren't clear. It is thought that heat treating pine shavings may reduce the levels of aromatic hydrocarbons that have been implicated as a potential concern, so that products such as kiln dried pine are safe (many pet products are heat treated).

Since there are so many alternatives that aren't linked or even rumored to be problematic I see no reason to take the risk of using pine or cedar, but thank you for sharing your years of experience. Perhaps you would also share the advantage of pine over the other alternatives for substrate that make it so useful.

Except for the blurb at the end, you aped that directly from Melissa KRAPlan at Anapsid.

http://www.anapsid.org/cedar.html

It isn't the first time I've seen this turd nugget pooped out on a snake forum - I could almost recite it line by line.

For what it's worth, no one is discussing cedar, so let''s get that little diversion off the table - we are discussing pine.

Pine is currently used, has been used and will be used by legions of herp keepers and there is not one study that implicates it in any health issues with snakes.

Pine is cheap, it's available everywhere and it's absorbent. I get mini flake (comparable to sani-chips) in 5 cf bundles for $6.50 per. A bundle half that size in Sani-Chip is $9.00.

Even the health studies (as they pertain to pine) so religiously and incorrectly referred to by the Mensas in the rodent hobby are nothing more than biased false interpretations of medical data that have somehow been taken as gospel. Sadly the interpretations are made by people who barely can figure out dosing quantities or who have the mental capacity to convert millimeters into inches- but have miraculously become experts in rodent hepatic functions.

There is no risk in using pine as bedding for snakes. None has even been documented and furthermore, there is not one shlub on any forum who can verify via necropsy that their snakes have suffered from it's use. Sadly, too many people in this hobby make gross assumptions when their snakes die - and do not bother to back up their wild assumptions with facts.

I have thrown the challenge our here more than once and so far not one self proclaimed expert on this subject has been able to rise to that challenge - namely find one study (a real study, not a blog written by some slob who read a lab report regarding liver enzymes levels in bald rats and decided to connect his own dots) that proves pine is harmful to reptiles and I will stop using it.

Until that happens, I will debunk ever internet regurgitator who wants to pit his or her experience with pine up with mine. I've keep animals on it in the neighborhood of three decades. God alone knows how many of my snakes have crapped, peed, banged, birthed and lived long healthy lives on pine bedding with not one single issue. Not one.

There are other people here, including at least one moderator(trix) who will do the same with rodents.

[Kaorte]

Skip, would you say that non-kiln dried pine is also safe?

Seems like most of the hardware store brands of cypress are mixed with pine.

[Skiploder]

Skip, would you say that non-kiln dried pine is also safe?

Seems like most of the hardware store brands of cypress are mixed with pine.

I can honestly say I've never seen non-dried pine bedding for sale. Beddings (and shavings) are dried to make them absorbent.

Selling non-dried bedding would negate one of the biggest reasons for buying it.

The mixtures solds at Lowes and Home Depot are usually a 60/40 (or so) split between cypress and pine respectively.

Since these are sold as mulch and not as bedding, I would assume that they just go through the same splintering process cypress endures - no drying, just grinding.

[Kaorte]

I guess I can't decide whether or not it is worth it to use a hardware store mulch that contains non-dried pine. If there is no real evidence that pine is harmful to reptiles, then I'm leaning toward giving it a try, although I would still prefer 100% cypress mulch. I just don't really feel like paying pet store prices.. so expensive.