odd spider

[tikigator]

Wow. That was an interesting read! To the OP......my very first initial thought (before reading thru 11 pages of comments) was I bet that snake has another gene at play. I am no expert, and I could be totally wrong and it could totally be a crazy normal as so many others seem to be so sure that it is. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the mother was not a normal....and perhaps some type of morph and you infact have a double gene animal (that would be kind of cool, to post an update thread saying you not only proved out your spider but that it's really a spider x _____).

Now having read thru all the comments and gotten to the last page, I see someone else agrees with that possibility with the enchi spider theory. I don't own any enchi's nor do I know much about enchi combos but the one pic she posted sure looks like the same pattern, head stamp, green eyes, etc. I don't think the color is quite right I would think the sides of the enchi spider would be more yellow/gold than white. But perhaps there is infact another gene at play.

Like Gayle said, if you are just having this snake as a pet it really doesn't matter, it is a truely amazing animal regardless--awesome pattern, great color, etc. But if you are going to breed, I sure would breed that snake and try to prove it out...maybe to a super pastel (to not miss the odds) everything will be pastel....so if you get bees, you'll know.

I think it's a pretty sweet looking snake and if I were you I'd sure dink around with it. There are many snakes that have been mistaken for morphs, just has many people have mistaken morphs for normals. So maybe the momma was a morph and you've got a really cool project to work with. Best of luck!! Update please if you breed!!

[SquamishSerpents]

Not sure what's going on here, I haven't read the whole thread. But this is my snake, and he is an enchi, no spider.

Oh, I'm sorry about that! I know it's not an Enchi Spider; I just pulled some photos from Google to demonstrate that some Enchi's can have the sort of Spider look to them, pattern-wise. I see a bit of "webbing" on the snakes I posted, including yours. I hope you don't mind that I used it, if so I can PM a mod and get it taken down!

Can we see pics of the sire and dam, please?

Nope. OP has never seen the dam, but it was apparently a weird looking Normal.

Questions

1. How does a normal get spider traits unless that normal carry's the spider gene?
2. Ever seen a normal with a mustache, I haven't?

It's a confused little snakie

1. Easy. Traits can be passed on regardless of weather the actual gene was passed on. I have a normal female who passes a little spot to some of her offspring. If you breed 2 crazy busy pattern Normals together, you're not going to get a super reduced, banded Normal. All snakes inherit traits from their parents.

2. No, but I have seen Enchi's with it, which is why I'm suggesting that!

I see someone else agrees with that possibility with the enchi spider theory. I don't own any enchi's nor do I know much about enchi combos but the one pic she posted sure looks like the same pattern, head stamp, green eyes, etc. I don't think the color is quite right I would think the sides of the enchi spider would be more yellow/gold than white.

No no, my theory is NOT that the snake in question is an Enchi Spider, but simply an Enchi INSTEAD of a Spider. The OP stated the Dam was a reduced looking Normal (remember, OP has never seen this snake), so my theory is that it is a POSSIBILITY that the Dam was an Enchi and not a Normal.

The fact that you are seeing a similar pattern, head stamp, and green eyes tells me that I'm not crazy. The color isn't quite right to be an Enchi Spider, you're correct on that, but Enchi is what I was instantly reminded of with regards to the side pattern shown in the original photos. But like I said, just lately my Enchi (who I feel is an ugly Enchi) has just started to color up and get his golds/yellows.

[tikigator]

Question......has anyone considered the thought that this could be a spider x woma? That perhaps the "reduced normal" female was actually a woma? That would explain, well, pretty much everything. The woma gene could easily have toned down the spider pattern, yet left the green eyes and minimal white sides.

[SquamishSerpents]

Another good possibility, tikigator!

[RoseyReps]

Isn't spider x woma fatal though? Or am I mistaken about that

[tikigator]

I believe you are thinking of spider x spider....I heard that once but I'm not sure if that's a fact or not. EDIT: just looked it up, spider x spider is fine, NERD has done it successfully a bunch. The lethal combo is HGW x HGW is lethal (and Hidden Gene Woma is different than a regular Woma)

See photo of spider x woma....looks pretty darn close to me:

"So the woma gene more or less turns a spider to normal"
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...x-pastel/page2

[RoseyReps]

hm, I guess because of the issue when crossing the "wobblers" I thought spider x woma would be fatal as well. My bad! I've never seen a spider woma before!

That might explain it!

[satomi325]

Personally, I see a very reduced banded normal with 'spider-like' traits. But no definite spider.....
The sibling looks like a text book spider, however.

[Mrhappytreats4u]

I looked into the woma spider and the hgw spider...the hidden gene woma spider makes the spider look more normal than the woma... I will post pics of the hgw spiders...these are google pics not my own... woma spider spider cross.....the last two photos are from ddreptiles.com

[tikigator]

Well, my point was that an HGW or a Woma could easily be mistaken for a reducted pattern normal, esp to someone who had absolutely no idea and wasn't even questioning the snake's genetics. Obviously without seeing a photo of female/mother we cannot make any ID confirmations, but I think it's safe to say she *could* potentially have been mistaken for a normal, and the father was obviously a spider (due to the sibling spider being verified) so it's safe to say that this mystery snake could indeed have a double gene in play. It sure would be interesting to breed and see what pops out.

PS for all the people who don't think it's worth breeding "an ugly low quality spider"....FWIW, I think for all the ugly low quality browned out pastels and combos that are constantly being bred, this is one snake that is totally dinker worthy.