Immune System Breakdown: Comparing bp morphs to purebred dogs

[mechnut450]

I was having a discussion with my buddy about RI's the other day, as he is having a huge problem right now. Hes tried everything...different racks, different humidity, different beddings, etc. He even talked with some of the big breeders and entertained their suggestions. But when he mentioned that its only affecting his morphs, and that hes never had any health issues with normals/wild types, and that he thinks that selectively breeding for morphs over all these years has really weakened their immune systems, it reallly got me thinking. We also talked about when we first got into ball pythons how we started out with a normal or two, would carry them everywhere, were still learning about husbandry as we were novices, and that those BPs NEVER got an RI. It also amazes me how many of the BPs that me and my wife have rescued were in very bad environments with NO heat among other things, and should have been sick as a dog, but were totally fine! We also talked about how mutts are usually healthy and issue free, but that almost all purebred dogs have health issues....esp todays dogs. My wife has worked in pet stores for over 12 years and has never seen so many people now that have dogs with so many allergies and illnesses. Which is a reason why the pet industry is still doing so well. Weve never had any issues with RIs among our snakes, but then again our collection is only 25 animals, whereas most big breeders have hundreds. I think Im with my buddy Joe on this. I know, like with dogs, when were trying to express certain desirable genes in our snakes, animals are inbred. And I do think that it is very possible the immune systems of our snakes in the future are possibly going to be sub-par. Currently, there is over 1700 morphs out there!! And each time new colors and patterns are unlocked, what other health issues will be unlocked with them? Has anybody else with more experience and many more animals observed this? Anybody else have any other theories and/or input? Id love to hear some agreements/disgreements and why. This kind of topic has always interested me , but Im also concerned that some our beautiful animals will be in jeopardy if some wierd crazy snake virus is discovered in the future.

[3skulls]

I think it might have more to do with Survival of the fittest. In the hobby none of the weaker ones are picked off like they would be in the wild.

I work with dogs everyday and see what you are saying. You can see how line breeding / in breeding are turning some of the breeds into jokes.
It's sad to see a young German Shepard with a huge slant in his back and bad hips. The Lab and Goldens with eyes to close together or to far apart. Bad skin, bad ears, can't leave the room without them freaking out.
Then you see a perfect example of a breed and they are fixed.

I don't know if line breeding or in breeding would affect reptiles in the same way. I wouldn't think it helps.

[Wes]

Could it be that a lot of big breeders have very strict guidelines for housing and care, so when the animal goes to its new home and has a drastic change in temps, humidity, housing, substrate, and cleanliness it could cause the animal to come down with a sickness quicker? Compared to say a farm bred normal who isn't kept in the best conditions so it builds up a stronger immune system?

This is of course complete speculation and just thinking out loud.

[Annarose15]

Keepers these days also seem to offer up higher and higher humidity "rules" to newbies. I keep my animals between 35-55% humidity (winter is rough). Although I occasionally have less-than-perfect sheds, I have never had an RI without other extenuating circumstances (and only two total). Moisture and heat breed bacteria, and I shudder when I see people recommending 70% and higher humidities for new keepers, as well as placing water bowls over/under heat sources (petri dish, much?). We also keep BPs in smaller enclosures, generally, which leads to even more bacteria-ridden environments if they are not cleaned and disinfected regularly (they used to be able to go to the other end of a behemoth tank). This is not to imply that your friend's issues stem here, just food for thought.

[33rpm]

Makes sense to me. Look at Spiders and their "spin-offs". Caramel Albinos, too. I knew a guy almost 15 years ago who took his normal everywhere he went, weather permitting, of course. He took it in the car, on walks, other peoples homes, you name it! Never a single, solitary issue! "RI" issues are a dime a dozen, these days, it seems. A cool "paint job" doesn't make inbreeding ok, in my book. I love how many people preach that BPs aren't "display" animals, either, yet strive for the most fantastic colors and patterns imaginable. Hypocrisy, much? Now, I'd love a Clown, Pied, or even a Super Pastel as much as the next guy, but the unknown possible underlying health anomalies are always a factor for me. Scares me to death thinking about spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars for a snake to just turn around and be at the Vet on a regular basis. I'm a firm believer that sometimes less IS more.

[barbie.dragon]

I think it might have more to do with Survival of the fittest. In the hobby none of the weaker ones are picked off like they would be in the wild.

I work with dogs everyday and see what you are saying. You can see how line breeding / in breeding are turning some of the breeds into jokes.
It's sad to see a young German Shepard with a huge slant in his back and bad hips. The Lab and Goldens with eyes to close together or to far apart. Bad skin, bad ears, can't leave the room without them freaking out.
Then you see a perfect example of a breed and they are fixed.

I don't know if line breeding or in breeding would affect reptiles in the same way. I wouldn't think it helps.

Augh american german shepherds get quite deformed... the Czech and german lines hold great form since its breed standard to be able to work and they need to get sch titles.

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[Pythonfriend]

reputable breeders take measures to reduce inbreeding.

like, for example, when a big-time breeder has 5 super cinnamons and one or two are getting old, a way to get a new one would be: get 2 new normal BPs directly out of africa or from a completely different breeder, breed these to two of the super cinnys. now you have 2 clutches of cinnamon that are distantly related, breed these together to get super cinnys, add the nicest ones to the collection, sell off the cinnys and normals.

of course inbreeding can impact overall health, but fortunately outbreeding is easy with BPs, so solving the problem is easy for bigger breeders.

if you have a line of german shepherds you cannot just get a wild grey wolf out of europe, outbreed to the wolf, and get back a german shepherd with some fresh wolf genetics 1 generation later. But with BPs you can do just that.

and: picking out the weakest can and should be done with BPs, in reverse: pick out only the strongest for breeding.

[3skulls]

as well as placing water bowls over/under heat sources (petri dish, much?)

X2 yuck

[Kodieh]

X2 yuck

I do this during shedding, never had an RI or a bad shed. My animals are well taken care of, not to say the friend doesn't, but to come up with a genetic deficiency to explain it? Perhaps that could be it, or it could be many other things. Occam's razor, it's probably not genetic.

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[Pythonfriend]

Augh american german shepherds get quite deformed... the Czech and german lines hold great form since its breed standard to be able to work and they need to get sch titles.

in central europe german shepherds have such a large population, its easy to breed healthy ones.

one key method should be adopted for BPs as well, and many breeders already do it, that is the paperwork. at least for the breeding animals, even if many breeders are involved, you know the parents, grandparents, which breeders produced the grandparents, sometimes it goes back many generations. And for breeding you pick two individuals that are healthy, where the siblings are also healthy, you compare the paperwork, there should be no matches when tracking it back a few generations. and now you have a breeding pair and can sell at top price, to the government, to hunters, to facilities that train assist-dogs for blind and disabled people, because you have the paperwork to prove that you are producing excellence. Its the same with race horses, they have family trees going back many generations.

today with a computer and a digital camera and a card that follows each snake in the collection, its easy to do excellent documentation. Many breeders already do an excellent job and lots of information can be requested. Im in europe, and if i would be a professional breeder (i am not) and if i would decide to start breeding clowns, an easy way to produce large numbers without inbreeding would be: i buy 3 female clowns, potentially with other morphs going on, in europe, try to get as much paperwork as possible. Then i buy a male clown with excellent paperwork going back at least 2 generations from the USA. Its really easy for big breeders.