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[Evenstar]

Sorry for being kind of snappish, I'm just worried about my baby. I don't mean to be rude.

On the bright side when I lifted her out of her cage she seemed fine and was just curious about what was going on. She will still be going to the vet tomorrow.

Yeeeah..... Sorry, but your previous post really didn't come off too well. "Our word for it" was mearly a typo - don't get overly technical. And how do you know how much more experience Skip has over me? I'm not being egotistical, but you don't know me personally and have no idea just how much experience I have. On that note, you don't know how little either so I do apologize as that does sound egotistical even to me. But since I'm trying to help you, throwing that back at me doesn't fly too well and frankly it kind of ticked me off. But I am sorry - I also do not intend to be rude.

Please don't take this comment as condescending but wouldn't it be worth a shot trying different substrate since there is an argument on pine just to see if it helps?

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And this is exactly my point. You have a snake with a problem. I would be trying ANYTHING to see if it helps. I have told you what I think. I will moniter this thread to see how your snake is doing as I am concerned for it, but I won't be posting any longer. I do hope your boa improves soon.

[DooLittle]

"Our" word? I'd rather take Skiploder's word for it, because he has far more experience than either of us. Cedar is harmful, kiln dried pine is not. I have used it for years now.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...49#post1915049

I appreciate your concern, and I will update after I see the vet.

You came here and asked for help, Evenstar is trying. No need to be rude because you don't like the answers you got. Reminds me of a newb kid move.

Pine and cedars are not good to use! Why fight about it, when you can just put papers down and see if that helps. You want help, that's a suggestion you've been given. And no harm in trying.

And... I have been on here for a year and a half, seen enough to know who I would trust for advice, and who not. If I ever had a boa problem, Evenstar would be the first person I ran to.

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[meowmeowkazoo]

She has been on pine before and never had this type of reaction. I have never seen anything in any of my animals to incline me towards believing that the pine is the issue.

I felt aggravated that I came here for advice and instead ended up being treated like a newbie and arguing over whether or not pine is an issue. Evenstar came off as condescending when she dismissed the symptoms out of hand as soon as she heard I was using pine. I have had so many people condescend to me for using pine when I've never had an issue with it, and they can never provide me with solid evidence that pine is in fact an issue.

I was incredibly frustrated that after all my years of experience, my concerns were being dismissed as being caused by a bedding that I have every reason to believe is benign.

I apologized, and yet everyone else is more interested in raking me over the coals for being rude.

[DooLittle]

Well, Evenstar cannot replace your vet. Your vet can give you answers. Evenstar is offering her advice on what she thinks your problem might be. That's typically how things work around here. Someone says "help I have blank problem" people come on, and with the best of their experience offer advice. Once you stated the husbandry, that obviously triggered a flag. Just because you have been using it with no problems doesn't mean its ok, or good to use...

No one is "raking you over the coals". Only trying to help. So I don't know what answers you are hoping for, but I hope your snake is ok.

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[BFE Pets]

Honestly I cant blame evenstar for with drawing. She was merely trying to help with her suggestion. I also have to agree that the pine bedding was the first red flag that popped in my mind also. Just because we have done something before with no ill effect doesnt mean that it cant happen for the first time. i.e. a different brand of bedding, a slip up in quality control at the plant that produces it. What ever ya know. Safety is written in blood. thats a saying we have at my job. theres several things we do everyday the same way every time. things that we have done for decades in my industry. Then one day someone gets hurt doing it that way. Then we step back and find a safer way to do it. The pine bedding is questionable in most of our minds. I personnaly would never use pine kiln dried or not for any reptile! As for questioning her experience level.... I'm at a loss on that. I trust her judgement on boas above most. I understand you are upset about your new baby but still there are more polite ways of dealing with such situations. I also value skiploaders opinions but I have no idea what his experience level is either. All I can say is any advice given should be appreciated and thanked and double checked. In evenstars case she will almost always tell you where to find the info she has just offered if you ask. just my $.02

btw this link was also in the replies to the link you posted.
http://www.wood-database.com/wood-ar...-and-toxicity/
it list pine as an irritant, asthma hazard
now having said that it does not specify kiln dried or not but i'd say why risk it

[Sand]

She has been on pine before and never had this type of reaction. I have never seen anything in any of my animals to incline me towards believing that the pine is the issue.

I felt aggravated that I came here for advice and instead ended up being treated like a newbie and arguing over whether or not pine is an issue. Evenstar came off as condescending when she dismissed the symptoms out of hand as soon as she heard I was using pine. I have had so many people condescend to me for using pine when I've never had an issue with it, and they can never provide me with solid evidence that pine is in fact an issue.

I was incredibly frustrated that after all my years of experience, my concerns were being dismissed as being caused by a bedding that I have every reason to believe is benign.

I apologized, and yet everyone else is more interested in raking me over the coals for being rude.

Just out of curiosity, How many years have you been working with herps?

IIRC, oil based reactions normally show up after prolonged exposure. And at the same time, some animals reaction are violent and others seem "immune" to the effects. That being said, what it is the harm in swapping it up with some newspapers whilst waiting on your vet appointment? Now omitting that fact I would be more inclined to lean towards either IBD or RI as well... And I really hate saying that because both are generic "go-to" reasons and thoughts no matter how serious or minor the "symptoms" are being expressed.. Dolly's symptoms sound rather serious which is why I even took the time to mention it. Please update after the vet apt.

[meowmeowkazoo]

Well, first of all I would like to apologize again, more sincerely this time, to Evenstar. I am very sorry that I questioned your level of experience, and became so aggressive about the pine issue. You made the effort to post in this thread to help me, and I was very ungrateful about it. So, I do apologize.

I genuinely appreciate the support and friendship I have found on this site, and I have no wish to alienate anyone over a disagreement about pine.

H.o.F.R. - Dolly is not a new snake, I have owned her since April 1st of last year. She was a rescue snake, which concerns me despite her 6 month quarantine. She was rescued with 13 ball pythons, none of whom have shown symptoms of IBD (as far as I know, I do not own them). Skiploder has 30+ years of experience with snakes.

I would like to share an article I read about cedar toxicity symptoms in snakes:

http://www.anapsid.org/cedar.html

"Symptoms of irritation include clear to discolored fluids discharged from eyes and nose (which may be mistaken for a regular microbial respiratory infection), sneezing, coughing, constant blinking or other signs of light sensitivity, irregular breathing (dyspnea) and possibly regurgitation. In severe cases, the animal may fall unconscious with or without convulsions. Secondary bacterial, viral and fungal infections are all the more likely to attack once the cells of the respiratory system are damaged and destroyed."

Dolly has not demonstrated any of these symptoms. I was not able to find any articles about the effects of pine, but I am assuming that hypothetically speaking, the symptoms would be similar to cedar toxicity.

I checked on her today in her quarantine tub, and she is coiled up as she normally is. No concerning symptoms today.

I was going to take her to the vet today, but I remembered that my husband will have the car. So she is going tomorrow, and I will update everyone as soon as I find anything out.

[Kaorte]

Just because Skip talks himself up doesn't mean he is 100% right all the time. Take his teachings with a grain of salt, as you would with anyones advice off the internet.

I think a vet visit is the only way to know for sure. If it was an isolated incident and you never see it happen again, perhaps the snake was spooked by something or angry.. who knows. I wasn't there for sure, but it could have just been a very angry snake, no necessarily a sick one.

Just my opinion. I'm no vet!

[meowmeowkazoo]

Just because Skip talks himself up doesn't mean he is 100% right all the time. Take his teachings with a grain of salt, as you would with anyones advice off the internet.

I think a vet visit is the only way to know for sure. If it was an isolated incident and you never see it happen again, perhaps the snake was spooked by something or angry.. who knows. I wasn't there for sure, but it could have just been a very angry snake, no necessarily a sick one.

Just my opinion. I'm no vet!

I always do my own research when offered any opinion by someone else. I was strongly against pine until Skiploder presented me with good reasons to question my current beliefs. So I did a lot of research, and was unable to find anything except hypothetical information about the possible toxicity of kiln dried pine. I found a few resources that suggested that kiln dried pine is not harmful, and I found many threads on different websites where people stated they had been using pine for x number of years without any issues.

I have yet to personally meet or hear of anyone that had issues caused by kiln dried pine. I have kept rats (which have very sensitive respiratory systems) on it for years, with no issues. My own experience and research have taught me that there is no reason to fear pine. I simply cited Skiploder on this one because he has far more experience in the herp community than I do, and I hoped that it would bring a quick end to the debate.

I don't believe that she was angry. In the 9+ months I've owned her, she has never hissed at me and never behaved aggressively. Even when she was first rescued she was tame as could be, which is why I named her Dolly.

I could accept the theory about her being spooked if not for the extremely loud squelching/scraping sound that came from her. It was nothing like an RI gurgle, it was so loud that I could have heard it from outside the room with the door closed.

The impression I got was one of pain, almost. Like she was hissing from the pain and then the tensing of her body caused the sound to occur.

[Kaorte]

I always do my own research when offered any opinion by someone else. I was strongly against pine until Skiploder presented me with good reasons to question my current beliefs. So I did a lot of research, and was unable to find anything except hypothetical information about the possible toxicity of kiln dried pine. I found a few resources that suggested that kiln dried pine is not harmful, and I found many threads on different websites where people stated they had been using pine for x number of years without any issues.

I have yet to personally meet or hear of anyone that had issues caused by kiln dried pine. I have kept rats (which have very sensitive respiratory systems) on it for years, with no issues. My own experience and research have taught me that there is no reason to fear pine. I simply cited Skiploder on this one because he has far more experience in the herp community than I do, and I hoped that it would bring a quick end to the debate.

I don't believe that she was angry. In the 9+ months I've owned her, she has never hissed at me and never behaved aggressively. Even when she was first rescued she was tame as could be, which is why I named her Dolly.

I could accept the theory about her being spooked if not for the extremely loud squelching/scraping sound that came from her. It was nothing like an RI gurgle, it was so loud that I could have heard it from outside the room with the door closed.

The impression I got was one of pain, almost. Like she was hissing from the pain and then the tensing of her body caused the sound to occur.

I agree with you on the pine. I'm pretty confident it isn't the pine, but you have to admit it is worth changing to see if it does any good. Why not? Couldn't hurt! There is no quick end to a debate on the internet, unfortunately

Yeah that sound is the only thing that is out of the ordinary... perhaps it was gas? A fart? A burp? If she hasn't been eating it makes some sort of sense that it might just be the lack of something in her stomach causing it to make a strange noise.

It really is odd. I read your post when you initially made it, and I had no suggestions other than the vet. It really does sound unusual. Does she seem normal since it happened?