The keepers in my area...

[Kodieh]

I just had a very...interesting Facebook...debate? I was forced to keep respectful, but I wanted to tell the guys they were a pack of morons.

So here's what they believe. Females can be bred as early as 1000g and if they aren't ready, they just won't (I harken here to legitament rape?). Also, every two weeks is how often you should feed adults, babies once a week. I discontinued the conversation on that point, so I didn't get what his idea of an adult and baby are so that's up in the air. I just...wow. I'm glad I haven't chosen to go to the local shows these people basically run to shoot the breeze with each other, I don't think I could stand it. Needless to say I'm probably not going to buy from any of them, I honestly would think their animals are sick knowing their feeding and breeding habits.

I just wanted to share, and get others thoughts on this.

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[bubblz]

Just because someones husbandry is different from yours doesn't necessarily mean their animals are sick. Can a female breed at 1000 g,.. yes but it's usually not recommended. Depending on the situation that person may chose age over size even then a young female at that size can still breed. Just like us they all mature at different rates most people just chose to wait until their snakes are larger and weigh more for different reasons. The same goes for feeding, babies or adult not everyone has theirs on the same schedule. No matter what age a healthy snake doesn't have to or even need to eat every week.

More often than not when ever people are involved with something they chose to do what they want, instead of what's best for the animal. Even that (what's best) varies from one to the next.

[Kodieh]

Just because someones husbandry is different from yours doesn't necessarily mean their animals are sick. Can a female breed at 1000 g,.. yes but it's usually not recommended. Depending on the situation that person may chose age over size even then a young female at that size can still breed. Just like us they all mature at different rates most people just chose to wait until their snakes are larger and weigh more for different reasons. The same goes for feeding, babies or adult not everyone has theirs on the same schedule. No matter what age a healthy snake doesn't have to or even need to eat every week.

More often than not when ever people are involved with something they chose to do what they want, instead of what's best for the animal. Even that (what's best) varies from one to the next.

I get what you mean, but as I understand, at that weight you have a higher chance of slugs? And, the strain put on a female when producing eggs is so great that more weight is just...All around better for the health of the animal.

As for the feeding, no they don't have to eat every week. But, you offer don't you? You don't staunchly wait two weeks between feedings do you? My problem with that is what of they refuse? Say they ate two weeks before that and then you still wait two weeks thereafter, that's a month you haven't tried but once to feed them. Sure, there are other factors I ignore in that but the principal idea is the same. It is the industry accept way, to offer food once a week, babies every five days.

The sick comment probably wasn't needed, I just see it that what size could that snake on your table be if you fed it once a week? Could it realistically be close to double in size?



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[PitOnTheProwl]

You also have to remember these are wild animals and I have yet to see anyone find a book written by a ball python telling other balls how they must live their lives
Its more a case by case basis for me.

[I-KandyReptiles]

You also have to remember these are wild animals and I have yet to see anyone find a book written by a ball python telling other balls how they must live their lives
Its more a case by case basis for me.

x2

[wolfy-hound]

Perhaps they feed slightly larger food items every other week, and that way the snake gets the same calories. Ive seen sizable females that were fed every 3-4 weeks, kept at less than ideal temperatures, so the idea that if you don't feed once a week = sickly malnourished scrawny snakes is obviously wrong.

I've been told by very successful breeders that they also attempt breeding younger females and I do believe that the female will not take if it's not mature enough. Until someone produces a study with a LOT of data showing that smaller/younger females have some bad reaction to being bred young/small, it's all conjecture. Yes, a female loses weight when they lay eggs, but in my experience many smaller(although not generally THAT small in my own snakes of course) pythons lay fewer eggs. As they got older, they seem to lay more eggs in a clutch. That's not based on a study with lots of data btw, it's just what I seem to have observed so far with mine.

And referring to breeding(or attempting to induce breeding) in two snakes where one might be smaller than the "industry standard" being called 'rape' is ridiculous in so many ways that I'm not certain where to start. It's distasteful. A male snake can hardly force a female to breed with him, since it requires a bit of cooperation on her part too.

Just because a lot of the hobby believes in doing things one way, doesn't automatically mean that other ways are "wrong" or "dangerous". After all, at one point folks only kept BPs in fish tanks with bare aspen, little to no humidity and heat lamps and unregulated heat rocks. Just because most of the hobby kept them that way, was it right too?

[Kodieh]

Perhaps they feed slightly larger food items every other week, and that way the snake gets the same calories. Ive seen sizable females that were fed every 3-4 weeks, kept at less than ideal temperatures, so the idea that if you don't feed once a week = sickly malnourished scrawny snakes is obviously wrong.

I've been told by very successful breeders that they also attempt breeding younger females and I do believe that the female will not take if it's not mature enough. Until someone produces a study with a LOT of data showing that smaller/younger females have some bad reaction to being bred young/small, it's all conjecture. Yes, a female loses weight when they lay eggs, but in my experience many smaller(although not generally THAT small in my own snakes of course) pythons lay fewer eggs. As they got older, they seem to lay more eggs in a clutch. That's not based on a study with lots of data btw, it's just what I seem to have observed so far with mine.

And referring to breeding(or attempting to induce breeding) in two snakes where one might be smaller than the "industry standard" being called 'rape' is ridiculous in so many ways that I'm not certain where to start. It's distasteful. A male snake can hardly force a female to breed with him, since it requires a bit of cooperation on her part too.

Just because a lot of the hobby believes in doing things one way, doesn't automatically mean that other ways are "wrong" or "dangerous". After all, at one point folks only kept BPs in fish tanks with bare aspen, little to no humidity and heat lamps and unregulated heat rocks. Just because most of the hobby kept them that way, was it right too?

I'll understand skepticism, but he did shoot me down when I said feeding larger sized prey items on a regular basis. He stated that leads to obese animals. Again, sure, the sick comment was probably unnecessary and a poor choice of words.

You trust your observations though, right? You would rather breed a larger female than a smaller one right? I suppose that's my opinion, though. My only problem with the tone they were using (granted its on the internet) was pretty puppy mill indicative, they really seemed to have no regard for the females in question. That's conjecture too, however.

You misunderstand the satire, I wasn't calling breeding a small female rape. I was calling on the statement that the female body can "not get pregnant" by rape if they so "choose". I mean, if a pairing doesn't produce then obviously nothing happened. However, why pair at all if one understands there's a chance she could be too small and refuse? I guess that actually starts at what you call "too small" and for me "ready" would 1750g.

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[cmack91]

I have two bp's right now. One adult male who is over seven years old, and one juvie female who is a year old this month. The female used to be fed about fifteen percent of her body weight once a week. She gained steady weight for a good five months. After she stopped gaining so much weight so I bumped her to every five days and she is doing perfectly fine.

The male on the other hand used to be fed fifteen percent every seven days, but now is fed ten percent every ten days, and is still steadily gaining the same amount of weight as he was on the heavier diet.

Both snakes are perfectly healthy, shed regularly, and not stressed. Temps fluctate from 87-93 on the hot spot and 76-82 ambient. Humudity is usually 60-70%.

Are my snakes being poorly cared for?

[Kodieh]

I have two bp's right now. One adult male who is over seven years old, and one juvie female who is a year old this month. The female used to be fed about fifteen percent of her body weight once a week. She gained steady weight for a good five months. After she stopped gaining so much weight so I bumped her to every five days and she is doing perfectly fine.

The male on the other hand used to be fed fifteen percent every seven days, but now is fed ten percent every ten days, and is still steadily gaining the same amount of weight as he was on the heavier diet.

Both snakes are perfectly healthy, shed regularly, and not stressed. Temps fluctate from 87-93 on the hot spot and 76-82 ambient. Humudity is usually 60-70%.

Are my snakes being poorly cared for?

I'll fire back with the same fervor. You said he's seven years, but didn't specify weight. For all I know, he's 3000g or greater and is a bit fatter than his length allowed. Then, he should be on a 10 day. However, if he's not into or well over then I see no need for the 10 day.

In that case and based on information given, yes by what I do and the standards I hold you're not giving the best care possible. Should I fault you for that? The behavior and expectations I've seen in places, yes. You shouldn't be in this hobby and try to save a couple bucks. Do I fault you for it? No, I have different ways of doing things and would do differently than you.

The female you mention probably shouldn't be on a five day at a year old. By my ways, she would have been on roughly 17-20% for give days till about 500 grams, then the same percent every 7 after that.

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[Skiploder]

I could honestly care less what other people's husbandry practices are.