1st time BP owner looking for help

[Shake_n_Bake74]

Hi everyone. I am new to the site and the Herp world. I just became an owner of an 8 year old male BP this past Sunday and find myself with LOTS of questions and, unfortunately, not a lot of resources.

Here's our history: I found him on CL and went to take a look at him. I thought he was beautiful as soon as I saw him. The PO (previous owner) had him for 6 months and was selling because of a necessary move. The purchase included Finch (his new name ), a 50 gallon terrarium, extra large hide, water bowl, thermometer, plastic vines/branches, heating pad and bedding. The tank has a mesh lid (non locking). Also, just remebered, he just finished a shed.

The PO kept the temp around 70 degrees as she did not have a heat lamp. I have since purchased a lamp, a 50w red bulb as well as a 2nd thermometer for the hot side.

When I brought him home, I noticed a strong smell of cat urine on the tank, bedding as well as on Finch! I gave him a bath, cleaned the tank, water bowl and hide, threw out the bedding and replaced it w Aspen bedding. All seemed good for the first night (Sunday).

I generally get home about 6:00pm and after getting changed from the day and getting dinner ready, I go into my room to check on Finch.

The next night, he was out of his hide so I removed the lid to spend time w him. Every time I plan to handle him, I rub his back (around mid length) so he isn't startled. When it seems like he's ok to be picked up, I always use both hands. I also stay away from his head/neck area as well as his tail; I've heard those are quite sensitive. I would also, ideally, try to handle him about 30 minutes and then return him to his tank. This day was also without incident.

Tuesday night, as usual to try to establish a routine/schedule, I opened the lid to take him out to play . I stroked his back but he responded differently. His muscles seemed twitchy and almost like he was spasming. Ok, maybe I still startled him, so I kept rubbing his back. After a while I tried to pick him up and he hissed at me. I backed off just giving him space and time. Maybe he just wasn't in the mood. So I waited a couple hours and tried again. Same body response followed by another hiss. So I called it a night.

Tuesday was when I bought the lamp and 2nd thermometer. I leave the light off at night and turn it on during the day while I'm at work. Temp on the hot side is around 80 and 70 on the cool. However, it seems like he doesn't like the heat lamp on as each day of using it, it looks like he's staying away from it and lying on the cool side. Maybe because the PO never used one idk.


Wednesday now and I'm thinking maybe he's hungry. PO said he ate 2 adult mice Tuesday the previous week but he should be good for a couple weeks. I decided to stop at the pet store and pick up 2 adult mice to see if he'll eat. Seeing as how this is the first time I'm feeding him and how agitated he was Tuesday, I feed him in the tank. I've read on numerous sites of the suggestions to feed in a different area to avoid potential bites, but did not want to cause him any stress of forcing a handling. He ate the first mouse within seconds. I waited about 5 minutes and fed him the 2nd mouse. Another night goes by.


Today (Thursday) I get home and look in on him. He is coiled up and is very aggressive. He actually struck out at me as I was removing my socks. So now, seeing this behaviour, I reach out to seek help/answers. What am I doing wrong? What am I missing? Please help

Thanks

[xFenrir]

He might need more time to get settled, especially if he had some traumatic experiences with his last home. Snakes are very strange creatures, my girl goes bonkers every now and then for a few days. She'll lash out at anything that moves. Within days she's back to normal. OR he could be "hungry" still (especially if his PO didn't feed him correctly), and is having feeding responses to you moving around within his range of sight.

I would say since you fed him, check to make sure his temps are right (~80 ambient, ~90 hotspot, 50% humidity) and then leave him alone for a week. I know it's very tempting to interact with your new guy, but give him some time to adjust to his new home. After the week is up, have 15 minute handling sessions every few days, increasing gradually to holding him every other day (or even every day, depending on whether he seems okay with being out). Watch for signs of stress (balling up, curling and/or staying very still, and rapid tongue-flicking can all be signs that something is upsetting him, or has caught his attention) and try not to hover over him or move quickly. Just watch him and get to know what his quirks are.

[Virus]

A quick response for now. He could have seemed so calm before due to a lack of heat. He hasn't been properly cared for, so when he starts getting up to correct temps, he'll start to actually be himself. Right now, he is untrusting of these large hairless apes and their lack of proper care. Keep working with him, and he'll turn around.

Make sure to double check the care sheets.

One last very important question. You have, or have on the way, a thermostat, right?


Edit: Also, an 8 year old ball python should normally be eating rats. A small or medium rat every week is what he should be ready for. So, not only has he never been properly warmed up, he's been half starved for at least the past six months.

[satomi325]

Hi everyone. I am new to the site and the Herp world. I just became an owner of an 8 year old male BP this past Sunday and find myself with LOTS of questions and, unfortunately, not a lot of resources.

Welcome to your first dose of the reptile world! Congrats on your first ball!
This forum is the best resource you can find on ball pythons!

The PO kept the temp around 70 degrees as she did not have a heat lamp. I have since purchased a lamp, a 50w red bulb as well as a 2nd thermometer for the hot side.

70 degrees is much too cold for a Ball Python. Anything under 75 degrees will have the potential to give your snake a respiratory infection, which can be life threatening and expensive to treat.
They need a temperature gradient of a ~88-91 degree hot spot and a ~80 degree cold side. They also need 50-60% humidity and around 70% during their shed cycle.

I generally get home about 6:00pm and after getting changed from the day and getting dinner ready, I go into my room to check on Finch.

The next night, he was out of his hide so I removed the lid to spend time w him. Every time I plan to handle him, I rub his back (around mid length) so he isn't startled. When it seems like he's ok to be picked up, I always use both hands. I also stay away from his head/neck area as well as his tail; I've heard those are quite sensitive. I would also, ideally, try to handle him about 30 minutes and then return him to his tank. This day was also without incident.

Tuesday night, as usual to try to establish a routine/schedule, I opened the lid to take him out to play . I stroked his back but he responded differently. His muscles seemed twitchy and almost like he was spasming. Ok, maybe I still startled him, so I kept rubbing his back. After a while I tried to pick him up and he hissed at me. I backed off just giving him space and time. Maybe he just wasn't in the mood. So I waited a couple hours and tried again. Same body response followed by another hiss. So I called it a night.

Tuesday was when I bought the lamp and 2nd thermometer. I leave the light off at night and turn it on during the day while I'm at work. Temp on the hot side is around 80 and 70 on the cool. However, it seems like he doesn't like the heat lamp on as each day of using it, it looks like he's staying away from it and lying on the cool side. Maybe because the PO never used one idk.


Wednesday now and I'm thinking maybe he's hungry. PO said he ate 2 adult mice Tuesday the previous week but he should be good for a couple weeks. I decided to stop at the pet store and pick up 2 adult mice to see if he'll eat. Seeing as how this is the first time I'm feeding him and how agitated he was Tuesday, I feed him in the tank. I've read on numerous sites of the suggestions to feed in a different area to avoid potential bites, but did not want to cause him any stress of forcing a handling. He ate the first mouse within seconds. I waited about 5 minutes and fed him the 2nd mouse. Another night goes by.


Today (Thursday) I get home and look in on him. He is coiled up and is very aggressive. He actually struck out at me as I was removing my socks. So now, seeing this behaviour, I reach out to seek help/answers. What am I doing wrong? What am I missing? Please help

Thanks

Ok first thing to clear up, there is no such thing as cage aggression in relation to feeding in the enclosure. Snakes have very precise ways to identify prey and non-prey (humans). They definitely know the difference between the two.
Most people here, including myself, feed their snakes in their own enclosures with no ill effect. It's more stressful to move a snake back and forth after a feeding. If you're too rough in moving the snake from a feeding bin to it's tank, it can result in the snake regurgitating it's meal.

You should leave all newcomer snakes alone for a week to allow them to de-stress and adjust to their new homes. Go ahead and change water or spot clean urates/poop, but don't handle him for a week.

2 mice every couple weeks is way too small for a snake his age. He should be feeding on at least small rats(or the equivalent number of mice) once a week. If he's acting aggressive, he's probably still hungry or stressed out.
Ball pythons do not strike out for no reason. They have two different strikes; feeding and defensive. Stress causes defensive strikes and prey causes feeding. Like I mentioned before, they can distinguish a hand from prey. (Unless your hand smells like food)




Here are a few caresheets and tutorials to look at:

Caresheet -
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...s%29-Caresheet

Husbandry -
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...Husbandry-FAQs

Setting up a tank - (tips on how to measure temps and keep humidity are very important)
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...p-w-pics-*DUW*

Good luck!

[ReptileJenna]

I agree with everything said before me.


About the Spasms
That is just a natural reaction if you brush up against a python, as in they will retract their muscle or bend where you touched them.

Feeding
I agree that he should be fed rats at this point; they are more nutritious and will help him put on weight quicker. You should feed him a rat that is a little bit bigger than his girth once a week on a specific feeding day. If he is really underweight or scrawny, then you might even want to lower the time between feedings. Also, I recommend using frozen rats, if possible. A live animal could be additional stress on him.

Another thing that might help is some extra supplements (calcium and Vitamin powder) to help him heal.

Temperature/Humidity
I keep my room temperature at 80-85 degrees, which for you should be the cool spot, then the hot spot at around 90 degrees. This is very important for the snake to feed, and if it is too cold, the snake could get a respiratory infection.

Humidity should be at around 50%, which you can achieve by misting or adding a layer of a substrate, such as coco fiber or some jungle blend, under the aspen. If you were to do that, make sure it doesn't cause the aspen to become wet, which would lead to mold.

Aggression
Give him some time to heal. I know it is hard to do (I remember my first snake), but especially with this type of situation, it would be important to not handle him. Let him warm up.

Once he has recovered, you can start taming him. I have plenty of snakes that hiss at me at first, but after lots of handling they learn to love it. My oldest ball python is the biggest softie in the world.

Health Issues

Check him for respiratory infection and mites, both are high possibilities considering his past life.

Respiratory infection link:
http://www.anapsid.org/rti.html

Mite link:
http://www.anapsid.org/mites.html


By the way, a really good book to read is The Complete Ball Python by Kevin McCurley

[heathers*bps]

I agree with everything said before me.


About the Spasms
That is just a natural reaction if you brush up against a python, as in they will retract their muscle or bend where you touched them.

Feeding
I agree that he should be fed rats at this point; they are more nutritious and will help him put on weight quicker. You should feed him a rat that is a little bit bigger than his girth once a week on a specific feeding day. If he is really underweight or scrawny, then you might even want to lower the time between feedings. Also, I recommend using frozen rats, if possible. A live animal could be additional stress on him.

Another thing that might help is some extra supplements (calcium and Vitamin powder) to help him heal.

Temperature/Humidity
I keep my room temperature at 80-85 degrees, which for you should be the cool spot, then the hot spot at around 90 degrees. This is very important for the snake to feed, and if it is too cold, the snake could get a respiratory infection.

Humidity should be at around 50%, which you can achieve by misting or adding a layer of a substrate, such as coco fiber or some jungle blend, under the aspen. If you were to do that, make sure it doesn't cause the aspen to become wet, which would lead to mold.

Aggression
Give him some time to heal. I know it is hard to do (I remember my first snake), but especially with this type of situation, it would be important to not handle him. Let him warm up.

Once he has recovered, you can start taming him. I have plenty of snakes that hiss at me at first, but after lots of handling they learn to love it. My oldest ball python is the biggest softie in the world.

Health Issues

Check him for respiratory infection and mites, both are high possibilities considering his past life.

Respiratory infection link:
http://www.anapsid.org/rti.html

Mite link:
http://www.anapsid.org/mites.html


By the way, a really good book to read is The Complete Ball Python by Kevin McCurley

If he is use to being fed live, I would stick with it, as trying to switch him now could be even more stress. And in my opinion, there is no need for vitamins and such. Once he gets on the proper size prey item and fed on a proper schedule, he will be A-ok.

To the OP, as everyone else has stated, your temps are too low. They should be 88-90 on the hot side and 80-82 on the cool side. Too low of temps can cause respiratory infections and they can be costly to treat. When bringing a new snake home, especially ball pythons, its pretty essential to give them atleast one full week of being left alone to adjust to their new environment and to settle in. I also agree to try him on small rats, but if all he eats is adult mice, then that's fine. Just make sure he is getting fed every week.

You do need a thermostat for your under tank heater. They can get extremely hot and burn or even kill a snake. Also, what type of thermometers do you have? I would really like to see pics of your setup and the snake as well.

Oh, welcome to the forums and the addictive ball python world

[satomi325]

Feeding
I agree that he should be fed rats at this point; they are more nutritious and will help him put on weight quicker. You should feed him a rat that is a little bit bigger than his girth once a week on a specific feeding day. If he is really underweight or scrawny, then you might even want to lower the time between feedings. Also, I recommend using frozen rats, if possible. A live animal could be additional stress on him.

Another thing that might help is some extra supplements (calcium and Vitamin powder) to help him heal.

I have to politely disagree here.
Rats are not any more nutritious than a mouse. If you look at the nutritional value of prey, the only difference is that rats have a slightly higher fat content, which is only just a percentage or two more.
Snakes will gain more weight on rats due to the sheer size of the rat vs the size of a mouse. It's just easier to feed an adult BP a single rat than multiple mice.

I agree with Heather. If the snake is feeding on live prey, he should stick to live prey for the time being until he is 100% settled. Balls are known picky eaters and often go off feed. Switching prey all the sudden may add to the stress. And some snakes may never take rats or even frozen due to their picky-ness. 80% of my snakes refuse frozen and will only take live.

Supplements (Calcium/vita powder) don't really do anything. For lizards, yes. Snakes, not so much. They get everything they need from their food.

[ReptileJenna]

I forgot to add that if its being fed live, continue it. Sorry, I had to rewrite a lot of it since my computer crashed. Big mess up there

If you are feeding live mice, stick to live mice only. Definitely don't switch to rats. If the past owner did not feed live (or the owner before it did not feed live), go back to frozen and maybe see what it thinks of it. Might be worth a shot, who knows? But then again, he seems to be eating pretty well

_
About the rat thing, there is a lot of different opinions; it is a controversial topic. Also, if you look at the actual nutritional information, rats have (more than just a few percentiles for some of it) higher protein, more fat content, and more calories (I guess it is how you look at it). My reptile veterinarian told me rats too.

I really hope I haven't offended anyone, and I understand that everyone has their own view. Honestly, I'm fine with some people preferring mice, and I believe that they thinks it great and they have proof to back their methods. I'm glad they found something that works for them.

Personally, rats look logical to me and I have my own proof to back it, so I've stuck to it. No biggie.

[Navy]

Okay, about the muscle spasms, that's just a normal response when you touch them.

The previous owner of this snake was a horrible owner and did not deserve that snake.

As for feeding, I typically go with either 1 rat or two mice a week, though I'd wait more than 5 minutes to offer the second.
Please please do not feed him a live rat, if you decide to go for rats go with frozen. I've seen too many snakes that have been injured by rats.
Studies have proven that you do not need to feed him in a separate container.

Give him a lot of time alone, he has to adjust to you.

Also, your thermometer is not one of those crappy gauges like these are they?



these are incredibly inaccurate, go with a digital probe.


Since your screen top does not lock, make sure that he cannot lift it up, my first bp could open it with his head.


The most important heat is belly heat, so a lamp isn't necessary and wastes electricity, but if you like it or cannot keep the temps up, it's perfectly fine. I'd go with some flexwatt heat tape because you have such a large aquarium.

[satomi325]

Live rats are totally safe if fed responsibly. There are pros and cons to both live and f/t. F/T can be equally dangerous if done incorrectly.
For live, feed small and more frequent rather than large and less often.

Adult rats are dangerous and can injure, even kill, a snake.
Weanlings and small rats are harmless and don't have the mental capacity to understand that snakes are dangerous. An adult rat will identify danger in a snake and will fight back. Plus weaned and small rats don't pack the same bite force as a full grown adult.

And make sure that the feeder is calm, well fed, and hydrated before putting it in with a snake. A hungry rat is more likely to eat the only other thing in the tub (the snake).
A well fed and hydrated feeder is more likely to be more relaxed as well. And whatever you do, do not dangle a feeder. They will freak out. Scared animals are dangerous.
And do not leave a feeder unattended for longer than 30 minutes max. Take it out and save the feeder for the next feeding.
These rules apply more to small rats and larger.

About the rat thing, there is a lot of different opinions; it is a controversial topic. Also, if you look at the actual nutritional information, rats have (more than just a few percentiles for some of it) higher protein, more fat content, and more calories (I guess it is how you look at it). My reptile veterinarian told me rats too.

I really hope I haven't offended anyone, and I understand that everyone has their own view. Honestly, I'm fine with some people preferring mice, and I believe that they thinks it great and they have proof to back their methods. I'm glad they found something that works for them.

Nope. I didn't take any offense. No worries. I hope you didn't either.

And it's not that some people prefer mice. I bet most (if not everyone) would rather feed their balls rats. But it's not up to the humans. It's up to the snake. As a species well known to be picky eaters, some ball pythons will never take rats. They simply just refuse. Its just like how some ball pythons are addicted to ASFs and will turn their noses to everything else.

I have looked at the side by side nutritional value of rats and mice. And there have been many topics here regarding such comparisons. The findings are nearly identical. I'm an animal biologist who works in a laboratory. I handle mice and rats daily. I also breed my own feeders.
I agree with vets who say feed rats. But it's more of a convenience factor than higher nutritional value. Like I mentioned, it's just easier to feed one rat compared to multiple mice.
All in all, the calorie intake and protein are very similar. The fat in rats are slightly higher.



Nutrient Composition of Whole Vertebrate Prey by RodentPro:
Adult mice (>10g)
- Kcal/g =5.25
- Crude protein % = 55.8
- Crude fat % =23.6

Rats (10-50g)
- kcal/g = 5.55
- Crude protein % = 56.1
- Crude fat % = 27.5

http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp


Whole prey according to the USDA(page 14 of their PDF provided below):
Adult mice (>10g)
- Kcalorie/g =5.77
- Crude protein % = 56.9
- Crude fat % = 23.5

Rats (10-50g)
- kcalorie/g = 5.67
- Crude protein % = 60.3
- Crude fat % = 26

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/Who...nal02May29.pdf


Additional data found on a non scientific source:
Adult mice (>10g)
- kcal/g = 5.25
- Crude protein % = 55.8
- Crude fat % = 23.6

Rats (10-50g)
-kcal/g =5.55
- crude protein % =56.1
- crude fat % = 27.5

http://www.leedspetshops.co.uk/nutri...snakes-page-69