Scientific approach to feeding?

[Smoked Oyster]

I have heard and read a lot of conflicting information about how much to feed a ball python, all from supposed experts. However, the (conflicting) information is always too vague for me. "1 large rat per week." "1 rat slightly smaller in diameter than the snake every few weeks." Since the experts can't agree, is anyone taking this to the next level to determine the actual appropriate/ideal caloric intake or grams per kilogram per month? There are very well established guidelines for ideal human consumption, and for other animals as well, such as dogs, cats, horses, etc. Those animals have been kept by humans for so long that real scientists have had plenty of opportunity to study them thoroughly and determine ideal diets with specific calories per kg. Seems to me that snake keeping is either too new or too niche for scientists to take the time to study this in depth.

I really want to get it right and not over or under feed my bp. I had been feeding "jumbo" rats (i weighed them myself at about 225g each) every "few" weeks (i translated that to 3), but the snake exhibited signs of over feeding, as in, frequent shedding, large poops, and refusal to eat for 2 months after 4 of those feedings. We broke her fast with a "small" rat, at around 90g a week ago, and then another at 90g yesterday. The snake went from 2000g when we got her last oct, up to about 2500g, and now she's back down to about 2000g again, after her fast, which seems to be her comfort zone where she eats best. I definitely don't want to under feed her, since the 90g rats seem so small, but I don't want to overfeed her either.

[MasonC2K]

The closest to a "scientific" approach was one done by Brian from BHB last year. He had 3 sets of hatchlings. Once set got the "standard" feeding regimen. And by "standard" it's what he does. I think that was prey just slighly wider than the snake every 4-5 days. His other groups were:

1) Feed smallers meals more often (3 days).
2) Feed slightly larger less often. (6-7 days).

If I recall correctly, the Larger Less Often group won out for growth. With the Smaller More Often group being the least successful.

Keep in mind this was for hatchlings who have higher metabolisms. I don't know of any type of feeding experiments for adults.

[Annarose15]

I have heard and read a lot of conflicting information about how much to feed a ball python, all from supposed experts. However, the (conflicting) information is always too vague for me. "1 large rat per week." "1 rat slightly smaller in diameter than the snake every few weeks." Since the experts can't agree, is anyone taking this to the next level to determine the actual appropriate/ideal caloric intake or grams per kilogram per month? There are very well established guidelines for ideal human consumption, and for other animals as well, such as dogs, cats, horses, etc. Those animals have been kept by humans for so long that real scientists have had plenty of opportunity to study them thoroughly and determine ideal diets with specific calories per kg. Seems to me that snake keeping is either too new or too niche for scientists to take the time to study this in depth.

I really want to get it right and not over or under feed my bp. I had been feeding "jumbo" rats (i weighed them myself at about 225g each) every "few" weeks (i translated that to 3), but the snake exhibited signs of over feeding, as in, frequent shedding, large poops, and refusal to eat for 2 months after 4 of those feedings. We broke her fast with a "small" rat, at around 90g a week ago, and then another at 90g yesterday. The snake went from 2000g when we got her last oct, up to about 2500g, and now she's back down to about 2000g again, after her fast, which seems to be her comfort zone where she eats best. I definitely don't want to under feed her, since the 90g rats seem so small, but I don't want to overfeed her either.

Your girl is absolutely fine with 90g a week. I don't even feed my 3100g girl jumbos. The swing in her weight was because she was holding 500g in poop/food in her at any given time, not truly gaining weight. Extremely large rats are also much more dangerous when feeding live (which you may or may not be doing). 90g is borderline small/medium, which is fine for her. Even if there have been studies on caloric needs in BPs (of which I'm not aware), they still would not be specific to YOUR BP, who has shown you what she wants by fasting when she was too full and starting to eat again when the prey went to a more reasonable size and she had had time to digest the jumbos.

[WingedWolfPsion]

The closest to a "scientific" approach was one done by Brian from BHB last year.

He did, and the results were VERY interesting, but they were conducted with corn snakes, not ball pythons.

One of the interesting results was that the hatchlings showed a very slight increase in growth rate when their prey was dusted with vitamin powder--the experiment should definitely be repeated many times, in order to determine if that was just an anomaly. (Actually, to really come to any conclusion at all, it will have to be repeated a number of times, you can't really draw any conclusions from one simple trial like this).

Animals fed one slightly larger than normal prey item every 7 days (I believe that was the time frame) showed dramatic growth compared with the animals fed several smaller items more frequently.

If this DOES translate over to ball pythons, it may mean that some of the commonly repeated advice is actually wrong. It may be better to feed a big prey item once a week, and not feed small ones more often...at least, if you want fast growth.

To extrapolate this, the idea that feeding a small rat once a week is better than feeding a large rat once every two weeks may turn out not to be ideal after all. This is definitely worth exploring.

Just keep in mind--a corn snake is not a ball python is not a boa constrictor. They may all have different ideal feeding schedules and requirements.

I think it's something that all of us breeders should be doing more often. Controlled feeding trials will tell us a lot more than guessing or intuition, and fairly often, it does seem as though that's what folks are going by!

[Slim]

I have yet to see the ball python I would feed a 225 gram rat to.

[HerpIsAhobby]

Unfortunately feeding snakes isn't an exact science. The other animals you listed eat a variety of foods that we can balance to equate a "perfectly balanced" diet. Snakes in general eat only rodents so it becomes more a question of how much should that rodent weigh. In the wild they eat when they can and from my observation of my collection it is very much the same. While I offer a rodent a week to my entire collection they make the decision on if they need it to sustain themselves or not. Also keep in mind every BP is as different as every person when it comes to size. You can have full grown females who struggle to break a certain weight while others get to 3500 grams within 4 years or less.

You mentioned your snake would be an on and off feeder on the jumbo rats and that makes total sense. She knew that one every so often would be enough for her. Now with you offering smaller meals she has become a more regular feeder which fits right in line. Don't get overwhelmed with the word "perfect". If your snake looks healthy and sheds in one piece you have won the husbandry battle.

[Mike41793]

I have yet to see the ball python I would feed a 225 gram rat to.

If you have a 2,000gram snake then 10% would be a 200 gram rat. If youre saying you wouldnt do that then when should the 10-15% feeding regimen be stopped? (im not calling you out slim, this is more of a general question for anyone)...

[jcoylesr76]

personally, and this is in no way scientific, other factors are at play, not just the size and frequency of feedings, the cage/tub sizes, the daily activity of the animal (does it roam the cage a lot, or hunker down?), temps (steady 24 hours or flux every 8-12 hours), + individual quirks, Etc , i do not think there is a solid this is right or wrong way to do it. understanding your animals individuality and how you keep them would be the best place to start out. once you know that that animal and why you do it your way, you can adjust the feeding and other factors to get the results you are hoping to expect.

[Egapal]

I have heard and read a lot of conflicting information about how much to feed a ball python, all from supposed experts. However, the (conflicting) information is always too vague for me. "1 large rat per week." "1 rat slightly smaller in diameter than the snake every few weeks." Since the experts can't agree, is anyone taking this to the next level to determine the actual appropriate/ideal caloric intake or grams per kilogram per month? There are very well established guidelines for ideal human consumption, and for other animals as well, such as dogs, cats, horses, etc. Those animals have been kept by humans for so long that real scientists have had plenty of opportunity to study them thoroughly and determine ideal diets with specific calories per kg. Seems to me that snake keeping is either too new or too niche for scientists to take the time to study this in depth.

I really want to get it right and not over or under feed my bp. I had been feeding "jumbo" rats (i weighed them myself at about 225g each) every "few" weeks (i translated that to 3), but the snake exhibited signs of over feeding, as in, frequent shedding, large poops, and refusal to eat for 2 months after 4 of those feedings. We broke her fast with a "small" rat, at around 90g a week ago, and then another at 90g yesterday. The snake went from 2000g when we got her last oct, up to about 2500g, and now she's back down to about 2000g again, after her fast, which seems to be her comfort zone where she eats best. I definitely don't want to under feed her, since the 90g rats seem so small, but I don't want to overfeed her either.

I would never feed a 225 rat to a ball python. I am guessing based on the 2500g to 2000g that you weighed your snake after you fed and then at the end of a fast. Otherwise 500 grams is a lot of weight to lose after a 2 month fast. I am not sure why you are so worried about under feeding your BP. At 2000 grams your snake no longer needs large meals to grow. Its an adult and you should cut back on feeding or the snake will get fat. If it were my snake I would be offering 150 gram rats every 10 days, but that's just me.

[coldbloodaddict]

I have yet to see the ball python I would feed a 225 gram rat to.

You need to come by my place then!!!