Crap!! Even shipping IN state will end up crossing state lines!!

[C&H Exotic Morphs]

I think without a doubt my logic would stand up in court. YOU are not responsible for what fedex does with your package once you give it to them. YOU are shipping a snake IN STATE as the law mandates. Also, I stand by what I said about reading something on a forum does not constitute knowledge on an issue. ( obviously there are exceptions but none which apply in this situation ).

Im confused though, what exactly did I suggest doing that would be irresponsible or stupid ? I clearly stated that I dont think the shipping would be an issue because I imagine FedEx is on top of this and is probably already working on some type of solution, whether it be not accepting snakes or rerouting packages. I could care less if people still try to ship or not. If they choose to that is their choice.

Really, I was just weighing in on the legal issues. I have zero interest in the larger snakes and have zero worries that this will work its way down to ball pythons.


EDIT :

Let me add this... The reason this law was passed is because of the overhyped stories about large snakes decimating the Florida wildlife. This isnt about a small ball python getting loose and biting someone. Heck, there have been several deaths from larger snakes and still not much in the way of legislation. Take away the burms in Florida and this bill would have never been introduced. THIS is why I have zero worries about this trickling down to all snakes like several of you on here believe it will.

You may or may not be correct about the first part of your post; whether or not you are responsible for what Fedex does with your package once you give it to them. We will find out more about this when Robyn@SYR gets back to us.
To the next part, your logic is very far off base. You DO NOT have to know about a law to be breaking it! So even if someone has a single pet burm and has to move to another state, but has never heard of the addition of burms to The Lacey Act they will still be breaking the law and held responsible for it if they are caught.
The stupid/irresponsible comment is fairly easy to understand. Making a comment that since you won't be responsible for Fedex transporting a Lacey Act animal across state lines it's not that big of a deal for you as the shipper. It is a huge deal, Fedex is one of the last ways for us to be able to ship our animals across the country and if they decided to stop shipping snakes or reptiles because of something like this it would destroy OUR amazing hobby!
As for the last part I completely agree with Maixx and Foshi. We as a community need to stand together in this. Whether you have a single corn snake or 100's of BPs, Boas, Burmeses and Retics. People need to stop thinking that it won't effect them and not caring. And start supporting all other pet owners.

[Kyle7676]

You may or may not be correct about the first part of your post; whether or not you are responsible for what Fedex does with your package once you give it to them. We will find out more about this when Robyn@SYR gets back to us.
To the next part, your logic is very far off base. You DO NOT have to know about a law to be breaking it! So even if someone has a single pet burm and has to move to another state, but has never heard of the addition of burms to The Lacey Act they will still be breaking the law and held responsible for it if they are caught.
The stupid/irresponsible comment is fairly easy to understand. Making a comment that since you won't be responsible for Fedex transporting a Lacey Act animal across state lines it's not that big of a deal for you as the shipper. It is a huge deal, Fedex is one of the last ways for us to be able to ship our animals across the country and if they decided to stop shipping snakes or reptiles because of something like this it would destroy OUR amazing hobby!
As for the last part I completely agree with Maixx and Foshi. We as a community need to stand together in this. Whether you have a single corn snake or 100's of BPs, Boas, Burmeses and Retics. People need to stop thinking that it won't effect them and not caring. And start supporting all other pet owners.

Slow down hoss ... I NEVER said ignorance of the law was a defense. I think you need to go back and reread everything that has been said, specifically the parts where people actually brought knowledge of the law from forum posts up. Better yet, before you question someone's logic, make sure you actually understand what it is you have read.

As far as the stupid / irresponsible comment ( I still have no clue what specific thing i said you are talking about but whatever ) - do you TRULY believe that FedEx hasnt been aware of this since this legislation was introduced ? LMAO - what do you think is going to happen exactly ? They arent going to find out about this addition to the Lacey Act til a month or 2 down the road when someone tries to ship a burm and then blow up and say no to all reptiles ? You cant be serious ....

FedEx is a huge company. They will make the decision based on what is best for their bottom $$ not because someone tried to sell a burm from FL to FL through their system. Google " shipping wine through FedEx ". Dont you think they know all the little tricks ? Yet people still do it. And they still allow it. If shipping reptiles is going to be too much of a hassle for them right now, they will stop. If they think they can make it work, they wont stop. Its that simple.

Believing that a forum has anything to do with it is just

[Jabberwocky Dragons]

Threads on a forum do not constitute knowledge. The fact still remains that you are mailing a package to be delivered intrastate. You are not willfully breaking a law. It will boil down to 2 problems. FedEx and others will simply stop accepting snakes for delivery or you run the risk of the package being inspected and the snakes being confiscated. Even if the package is inspected and the snakes are confiscated, personally I wouldnt worry about legal problems, just being out money or snakes.

Slow down hoss ... I NEVER said ignorance of the law was a defense. I think you need to go back and reread everything that has been said, specifically the parts where people actually brought knowledge of the law from forum posts up. Better yet, before you question someone's logic, make sure you actually understand what it is you have read.

As far as the stupid / irresponsible comment ( I still have no clue what specific thing i said you are talking about but whatever ) - do you TRULY believe that FedEx hasnt been aware of this since this legislation was introduced ? LMAO - what do you think is going to happen exactly ? They arent going to find out about this addition to the Lacey Act til a month or 2 down the road when someone tries to ship a burm and then blow up and say no to all reptiles ? You cant be serious ....

FedEx is a huge company. They will make the decision based on what is best for their bottom $$ not because someone tried to sell a burm from FL to FL through their system. Google " shipping wine through FedEx ". Dont you think they know all the little tricks ? Yet people still do it. And they still allow it. If shipping reptiles is going to be too much of a hassle for them right now, they will stop. If they think they can make it work, they wont stop. Its that simple.

Believing that a forum has anything to do with it is just

No problem! I went back and reread and there it is, second post. It used to be that there had to be intent present to commit a crime. The government realized they could prosecute many, many more people by stripping out the intent requirement and did so. Try depositing 10,000k cash into your bank account without documentation. Just because you didn't "willfully break the law" won't stop you from becoming a felon.

There is no defense in a case against the government. This isn't a logic or philosophy college course. The gov't could care less what your excuse...logic... reason is. If a snake belonging to you goes across state lines, they can prosecute you. Doesn't matter if you try to pin it on Fed Ex.

I suspect Fed Ex won't even know for 100% until a case goes to court. I also seriously doubt that Fed Ex allows people to illegally ship wine as you suggest to make an extra couple bucks off shipping. It's an absurd notion they turn a blind eye to it.

[Kyle7676]

No problem! I went back and reread and there it is, second post. It used to be that there had to be intent present to commit a crime. The government realized they could prosecute many, many more people by stripping out the intent requirement and did so. Try depositing 10,000k cash into your bank account without documentation. Just because you didn't "willfully break the law" won't stop you from becoming a felon.

There is no defense in a case against the government. This isn't a logic or philosophy college course. The gov't could care less what your excuse...logic... reason is. If a snake belonging to you goes across state lines, they can prosecute you. Doesn't matter if you try to pin it on Fed Ex.

I suspect Fed Ex won't even know for 100% until a case goes to court. I also seriously doubt that Fed Ex allows people to illegally ship wine as you suggest to make an extra couple bucks off shipping. It's an absurd notion they turn a blind eye to it.

It was late and I can see how the word willfully was misconstrued. Like I said before though, you apparently were not keeping up with the entire thread.

I was certainly not saying that this was a case of ignorance to the law. Let me break this down for you again since you obviously still dont get it.

It was brought up that from here on out, if you shipped a burm or such through FedEx, intrastate, that BECAUSE YOU READ THIS FORUM, that you would now have knowledge of FedEx taking your package outside of the state line. Because of this, you would be guilty.

I was simply pointing out that if you are shipping a snake INTRASTATE. From one address in a state to another IN THE SAME STATE, you are NOT breaking a law. Just because you read that FedEx MAY OR MAY NOT actually step over a state line with your package still does not constitute any legal wrong doing on your part.

" If a snake belonging to you goes across state lines, they can prosecute you. Doesn't matter if you try to pin it on Fed Ex. "

Now, stay with me here... Say you ship a burm from Dallas Tx to Marshal Tx ( Marshal is close to the Louisiana border ) using a local shipping service who doesnt have a processing center outside of the state. So no reason for it not to go straight down I-20 to its destination. Now, say the driver of that van decides he wants to make a pit stop to a little place he likes to go for lunch right on the other side of the border of Louisiana. So he does. With your snake in the back. Did you just commit a felony ? Of course not ! So my question is this... what is the difference between this and using FedEx ? The fact that they may or may not take your package outside the state ? How would you know they are though ? This isnt an issue of not having knowledge of the law, its an issue of not knowing what FedEx's shipping practices are. They are choosing to take packages outside of the state they are being shipped in. Not you.

Im still not convinced that FedEx takes every package to processing centers outside of state lines.

Oh, and WTF are you talking about ? It is FAR from a felony or illegal for that matter to deposit 10k into a bank account without documentation.

Of course FedEx doesnt ALLOW people to illegally ship wine. But when someone comes in and is shipping tons of bottles of " olive oil " from a local winery, is it on FedEx to open the box and make sure it is olive oil ? Of course not because they could care less. In that situation, the shipper is breaking the law. Not FedEx. They would not be held responsible.

[zeion97]

..... We do nothing but argue between ourselves.. just Because we don't agree on a few base issues doesn't mean we need to spend our free tine arguing over stuff like this....

I guess this conversation is a little different then the other ones we've seen, but in the end it still blows my mind.. we're not going to get anywhere alone, only together.

[Jabberwocky Dragons]

It was late and I can see how the word willfully was misconstrued. Like I said before though, you apparently were not keeping up with the entire thread.

I was certainly not saying that this was a case of ignorance to the law. Let me break this down for you again since you obviously still dont get it.

It was brought up that from here on out, if you shipped a burm or such through FedEx, intrastate, that BECAUSE YOU READ THIS FORUM, that you would now have knowledge of FedEx taking your package outside of the state line. Because of this, you would be guilty.

I was simply pointing out that if you are shipping a snake INTRASTATE. From one address in a state to another IN THE SAME STATE, you are NOT breaking a law. Just because you read that FedEx MAY OR MAY NOT actually step over a state line with your package still does not constitute any legal wrong doing on your part.

" If a snake belonging to you goes across state lines, they can prosecute you. Doesn't matter if you try to pin it on Fed Ex. "

Now, stay with me here... Say you ship a burm from Dallas Tx to Marshal Tx ( Marshal is close to the Louisiana border ) using a local shipping service who doesnt have a processing center outside of the state. So no reason for it not to go straight down I-20 to its destination. Now, say the driver of that van decides he wants to make a pit stop to a little place he likes to go for lunch right on the other side of the border of Louisiana. So he does. With your snake in the back. Did you just commit a felony ? Of course not ! So my question is this... what is the difference between this and using FedEx ? The fact that they may or may not take your package outside the state ? How would you know they are though ? This isnt an issue of not having knowledge of the law, its an issue of not knowing what FedEx's shipping practices are. They are choosing to take packages outside of the state they are being shipped in. Not you.

Im still not convinced that FedEx takes every package to processing centers outside of state lines.

Oh, and WTF are you talking about ? It is FAR from a felony or illegal for that matter to deposit 10k into a bank account without documentation.

Of course FedEx doesnt ALLOW people to illegally ship wine. But when someone comes in and is shipping tons of bottles of " olive oil " from a local winery, is it on FedEx to open the box and make sure it is olive oil ? Of course not because they could care less. In that situation, the shipper is breaking the law. Not FedEx. They would not be held responsible.

I'm not sure why you expend the effort to create scenarios that don't exist since you could apparently care less about this topic. You seem so sure about who commits a crime and who doesn't. There's no reason the government wouldn't or couldn't charge the shipper and transporter in your above scenario. They can do what they please and the careers of prosecutors advance based on the number of successful prosecutions.

I suppose if you nicely explained to the judge and prosecutor that the law doesn't apply to you, just to the physical transporter, they would realize their error and quietly drop the case .

You have no knowledge of how often Fed Ex alerts the gov't to illegally shipped wine or how often they are fined if caught by gov't inspectors for facilitating a crime but you speak with sure knowledge about their business as if you were a Fed Ex executive.

To answer your other question, it is illegal to use more than 10k in cash, in any transaction without documentation. The Bank Secrecy Act require banks to report anyone depositing 10k in cash or in smaller amounts to the government for investigation and prosecution. Other anti money laundering acts provide the same rules for any other transaction, such as using cash to buy a house or car... or high-end ball pythons. If you can prove you paid tax on the money, you will probably get off with a misdemeanor.

There were several people on the news who were charged with this last month for depositing more than 10k in cash with taxes paid (but no documentation). These cases were used as an example of how intent no longer matters when committing a crime.

[Kyle7676]

Many Jews in Poland said the same thing when the Jews in Germany were rounded up...They were just as myopic then as you are now. This is not just an issue of banning reptiles or certain species of reptiles. It's about taking away your rights. The easiest rights to take away are the ones you don't want. Just because you don't want them, doesn't mean they're any less important.

LMAO ! yes, this is exactly the same thing. I can certainly see how you can make this parallel. The government adding these snakes onto an act that is already in place could be the downfall of everything. I see that now thanks to you. Of course you are forgetting that there are hundreds if not thousands of new laws passed every couple of years that restrict someone's sense of freedom. I guess those wont lead to a Holocaust but this certainly will....

Quick question though, what exactly did you do to show your disapproval of this ? Of your rights being stripped away ? Did you come and rant on a forum ? Did you send an email ? Two emails ? You certainly showed them.

if you ship a snake with in state, it goes to memphis on fedex yes. but it is not considered leaving the state until it goes out of airport in hands and on to the streets. It has never left your state is the way they are seeing it.

Thank you crepers for adding that. Seems some people want to think the absolute worst ...

If I am not mistaken the Dept of Fish and Wildlife has a report floating around saying ball pythons can be invasive as far north as the great plains buy digging burrows to overwinter. With people like that in positions of power little things like 'fact' doesn't bother them much.

but kyle7676's comments worry me much more.

lol

I'm not sure why you expend the effort to create scenarios that don't exist since you could apparently care less about this topic. You seem so sure about who commits a crime and who doesn't. There's no reason the government wouldn't or couldn't charge the shipper and transporter in your above scenario. They can do what they please and the careers of prosecutors advance based on the number of successful prosecutions.

I suppose if you nicely explained to the judge and prosecutor that the law doesn't apply to you, just to the physical transporter, they would realize their error and quietly drop the case .

You have no knowledge of how often Fed Ex alerts the gov't to illegally shipped wine or how often they are fined if caught by gov't inspectors for facilitating a crime but you speak with sure knowledge about their business as if you were a Fed Ex executive.

To answer your other question, it is illegal to use more than 10k in cash, in any transaction without documentation. The Bank Secrecy Act require banks to report anyone depositing 10k in cash or in smaller amounts to the government for investigation and prosecution. Other anti money laundering acts provide the same rules for any other transaction, such as using cash to buy a house or car... or high-end ball pythons. If you can prove you paid tax on the money, you will probably get off with a misdemeanor.

There were several people on the news who were charged with this last month for depositing more than 10k in cash with taxes paid (but no documentation). These cases were used as an example of how intent no longer matters when committing a crime.

Whether you want to accept it or not, you have done nothing illegal shipping a snake intrastate and fedex taking it outside the state line.

I used the story I made up as an example of how ridiculous your thinking was.

As far as the 10k, think what you want. Im not going to keep trying to explain to you how you are wrong. Obviously its pointless.

[Slim]

LMAO ! yes, this is exactly the same thing. I can certainly see how you can make this parallel. The government adding these snakes onto an act that is already in place could be the downfall of everything.

You really have a problem with taking everything to the absolute, end of the flat earth, can't see the sun from here, the sky is falling, extreme, don't you? If you can't see the symbolism, I refuse to waste my time trying to explain it to you. (oh I'm gonna' hear about that in an endless series of stalker-style PM's, huh?)

Quick question though, what exactly did you do to show your disapproval of this ? Of your rights being stripped away ? Did you come and rant on a forum ? Did you send an email ? Two emails ? You certainly showed them.

I regularly correspond with the offices of the state senators and congressmen from two states (both my home state where I own property, and my current state of residence) on this issue. And, not only this issue. I let my feelings be known anytime I’m made aware of a bill that threatens to take away any individual right….especially the ones that don’t affect me. It’s far too easy to only fight for the things that affect your own comfort, safety, or security.

I would ask you the same question, but I think I already know the answer.