Crap!! Even shipping IN state will end up crossing state lines!!

[C&H Exotic Morphs]

Threads on a forum do not constitute knowledge. The fact still remains that you are mailing a package to be delivered intrastate. You are not willfully breaking a law. It will boil down to 2 problems. FedEx and others will simply stop accepting snakes for delivery or you run the risk of the package being inspected and the snakes being confiscated. Even if the package is inspected and the snakes are confiscated, personally I wouldnt worry about legal problems, just being out money or snakes.

You really think your train of thought would stand up in a Federal Court? And, even if it did work out that you, as the shipper, aren't responsible for the animal being transported across state lines it is still a violation of The Lacey Act. If it turns out that Fedex would be the one responsible; it's irresponsible comments like your's that could possibly put shipping of snakes or even reptiles as a whole at risk!
Our hobby already faces an uphill climb with the additions to The Lacey Act and all of the State and Local legislation that we are facing! We don't need people doing more stupid/irresponsible stuff that can and will put more pressure on us.

[Kyle7676]

You really think your train of thought would stand up in a Federal Court? And, even if it did work out that you, as the shipper, aren't responsible for the animal being transported across state lines it is still a violation of The Lacey Act. If it turns out that Fedex would be the one responsible; it's irresponsible comments like your's that could possibly put shipping of snakes or even reptiles as a whole at risk!
Our hobby already faces an uphill climb with the additions to The Lacey Act and all of the State and Local legislation that we are facing! We don't need people doing more stupid/irresponsible stuff that can and will put more pressure on us.

I think without a doubt my logic would stand up in court. YOU are not responsible for what fedex does with your package once you give it to them. YOU are shipping a snake IN STATE as the law mandates. Also, I stand by what I said about reading something on a forum does not constitute knowledge on an issue. ( obviously there are exceptions but none which apply in this situation ).

Im confused though, what exactly did I suggest doing that would be irresponsible or stupid ? I clearly stated that I dont think the shipping would be an issue because I imagine FedEx is on top of this and is probably already working on some type of solution, whether it be not accepting snakes or rerouting packages. I could care less if people still try to ship or not. If they choose to that is their choice.

Really, I was just weighing in on the legal issues. I have zero interest in the larger snakes and have zero worries that this will work its way down to ball pythons.


EDIT :

Let me add this... The reason this law was passed is because of the overhyped stories about large snakes decimating the Florida wildlife. This isnt about a small ball python getting loose and biting someone. Heck, there have been several deaths from larger snakes and still not much in the way of legislation. Take away the burms in Florida and this bill would have never been introduced. THIS is why I have zero worries about this trickling down to all snakes like several of you on here believe it will.

[Maixx]

Really, I was just weighing in on the legal issues. I have zero interest in the larger snakes and have zero worries that this will work its way down to ball pythons.


EDIT :

Let me add this... The reason this law was passed is because of the overhyped stories about large snakes decimating the Florida wildlife. This isnt about a small ball python getting loose and biting someone. Heck, there have been several deaths from larger snakes and still not much in the way of legislation. Take away the burms in Florida and this bill would have never been introduced. THIS is why I have zero worries about this trickling down to all snakes like several of you on here believe it will.

There are states that have "all reptile" bans going through legislation, and even if its not your home state, with every one of these that passes, it sets a precedent making the next one that much harder to beat.
So yes your bp's could end up eventually being at risk too.

[Kyle7676]

This right here is our biggest problem... The (It'll never happen to me) way of thinking.. We should all support each other. No matter what pets we have. CT just banned the big pythons along with monitors, some amphibians, and Quaker (monk) parakeets.. I use to own a Quaker years ago. They are smallish parrots with huge personalities and they talk. Amazing birds and very popular pets..

I support ALL pet owners. Knowing the evil behind the HSUS and the fact that they have every media outlet and politician in their millionaire back pocket should be enough for anyone to NOT recommend doing anything that would cause bad press for us.




----> Signature <----
*Factoid: "There are no such things as Hogg Island or Columbian boas"

There are states that have "all reptile" bans going through legislation, and even if its not your home state, with every one of these that passes, it sets a precedent making the next one that much harder to beat.
So yes your bp's could end up eventually being at risk too.

IF that happens ( I think that is a HUGE stretch and am not really worried about it ) then I will deal with it. WHEN it happens.

ALL I was doing from the beginning was simply pointing out that some of your " logic " and forum gossiping was off mark. That and I STILL dont get what press you people are talking about ?!? Other than here and other snake forums, there has been no press. My god, I went back and searched the WSJ and other larger news sites and found NOTHING on this. I havent even seen a blip on any news channels. Maybe my search skills suck and I have just changed the channels at the exact wrong moment.

Honestly though, the government could confiscate thousands of large snakes tomorrow and nobody would care ( except the herp community ). I would be willing to bet my truck that you could ask 100 random strangers whats going on with large snakes right now and you wouldnt get 5 that could answer it. ( of course you could ask those same 100 people how many stars were on the US flag and the numbers wouldnt be much higher ).

Sorry if I came off insensitive earlier. Like I said, for the herp community, this IS a big deal. This could hurt / kill thousands of snakes. Destroy income for who knows how many people. Outside the herp community though, nobody knows whats going on... and sadly, probably doesnt care.

[Maixx]

ALL I was doing from the beginning was simply pointing out that some of your " logic " and forum gossiping was off mark. That and I STILL dont get what press you people are talking about ?!? Other than here and other snake forums, there has been no press. My god, I went back and searched the WSJ and other larger news sites and found NOTHING on this. I havent even seen a blip on any news channels. Maybe my search skills suck and I have just changed the channels at the exact wrong moment.

I agree, I shouldn't have said media in the general. But this is the kind of event that opponents of the herp community use in their propaganda to support the anti-snake laws that they are trying to push. As we have seen with many other negative events or accidents that their spin doctors have used to exaggerate, they might turn one person breaking this law into a "black market" scenario trying to make us all look bad.

[Kyle7676]

I agree, I shouldn't have said media in the general. But this is the kind of event that opponents of the herp community use in their propaganda to support the anti-snake laws that they are trying to push. As we have seen with many other negative events or accidents that their spin doctors have used to exaggerate, they might turn one person breaking this law into a "black market" scenario trying to make us all look bad.

Yes. Im sure that a spin doctor could put this wild and crazy spin on someone shipping a snake from Orlando FL to Jacksonville FL as a black market situation because FedEx's van drove outside the state line for a few hours. Absolutely... I can see MSNBC, CNBC, FOX, and all the rest gearing up to have HSUS and PETA reps lined up for this breaking story...

I know some people hate the media and thats fine. But my god, I dont care HOW bad you THINK they are, this is not a story even for them.

[C&H Exotic Morphs]

I think without a doubt my logic would stand up in court. YOU are not responsible for what fedex does with your package once you give it to them. YOU are shipping a snake IN STATE as the law mandates. Also, I stand by what I said about reading something on a forum does not constitute knowledge on an issue. ( obviously there are exceptions but none which apply in this situation ).

Im confused though, what exactly did I suggest doing that would be irresponsible or stupid ? I clearly stated that I dont think the shipping would be an issue because I imagine FedEx is on top of this and is probably already working on some type of solution, whether it be not accepting snakes or rerouting packages. I could care less if people still try to ship or not. If they choose to that is their choice.

Really, I was just weighing in on the legal issues. I have zero interest in the larger snakes and have zero worries that this will work its way down to ball pythons.


EDIT :

Let me add this... The reason this law was passed is because of the overhyped stories about large snakes decimating the Florida wildlife. This isnt about a small ball python getting loose and biting someone. Heck, there have been several deaths from larger snakes and still not much in the way of legislation. Take away the burms in Florida and this bill would have never been introduced. THIS is why I have zero worries about this trickling down to all snakes like several of you on here believe it will.

You may or may not be correct about the first part of your post; whether or not you are responsible for what Fedex does with your package once you give it to them. We will find out more about this when Robyn@SYR gets back to us.
To the next part, your logic is very far off base. You DO NOT have to know about a law to be breaking it! So even if someone has a single pet burm and has to move to another state, but has never heard of the addition of burms to The Lacey Act they will still be breaking the law and held responsible for it if they are caught.
The stupid/irresponsible comment is fairly easy to understand. Making a comment that since you won't be responsible for Fedex transporting a Lacey Act animal across state lines it's not that big of a deal for you as the shipper. It is a huge deal, Fedex is one of the last ways for us to be able to ship our animals across the country and if they decided to stop shipping snakes or reptiles because of something like this it would destroy OUR amazing hobby!
As for the last part I completely agree with Maixx and Foshi. We as a community need to stand together in this. Whether you have a single corn snake or 100's of BPs, Boas, Burmeses and Retics. People need to stop thinking that it won't effect them and not caring. And start supporting all other pet owners.

[Kyle7676]

You may or may not be correct about the first part of your post; whether or not you are responsible for what Fedex does with your package once you give it to them. We will find out more about this when Robyn@SYR gets back to us.
To the next part, your logic is very far off base. You DO NOT have to know about a law to be breaking it! So even if someone has a single pet burm and has to move to another state, but has never heard of the addition of burms to The Lacey Act they will still be breaking the law and held responsible for it if they are caught.
The stupid/irresponsible comment is fairly easy to understand. Making a comment that since you won't be responsible for Fedex transporting a Lacey Act animal across state lines it's not that big of a deal for you as the shipper. It is a huge deal, Fedex is one of the last ways for us to be able to ship our animals across the country and if they decided to stop shipping snakes or reptiles because of something like this it would destroy OUR amazing hobby!
As for the last part I completely agree with Maixx and Foshi. We as a community need to stand together in this. Whether you have a single corn snake or 100's of BPs, Boas, Burmeses and Retics. People need to stop thinking that it won't effect them and not caring. And start supporting all other pet owners.

Slow down hoss ... I NEVER said ignorance of the law was a defense. I think you need to go back and reread everything that has been said, specifically the parts where people actually brought knowledge of the law from forum posts up. Better yet, before you question someone's logic, make sure you actually understand what it is you have read.

As far as the stupid / irresponsible comment ( I still have no clue what specific thing i said you are talking about but whatever ) - do you TRULY believe that FedEx hasnt been aware of this since this legislation was introduced ? LMAO - what do you think is going to happen exactly ? They arent going to find out about this addition to the Lacey Act til a month or 2 down the road when someone tries to ship a burm and then blow up and say no to all reptiles ? You cant be serious ....

FedEx is a huge company. They will make the decision based on what is best for their bottom $$ not because someone tried to sell a burm from FL to FL through their system. Google " shipping wine through FedEx ". Dont you think they know all the little tricks ? Yet people still do it. And they still allow it. If shipping reptiles is going to be too much of a hassle for them right now, they will stop. If they think they can make it work, they wont stop. Its that simple.

Believing that a forum has anything to do with it is just

[Jabberwocky Dragons]

Threads on a forum do not constitute knowledge. The fact still remains that you are mailing a package to be delivered intrastate. You are not willfully breaking a law. It will boil down to 2 problems. FedEx and others will simply stop accepting snakes for delivery or you run the risk of the package being inspected and the snakes being confiscated. Even if the package is inspected and the snakes are confiscated, personally I wouldnt worry about legal problems, just being out money or snakes.

Slow down hoss ... I NEVER said ignorance of the law was a defense. I think you need to go back and reread everything that has been said, specifically the parts where people actually brought knowledge of the law from forum posts up. Better yet, before you question someone's logic, make sure you actually understand what it is you have read.

As far as the stupid / irresponsible comment ( I still have no clue what specific thing i said you are talking about but whatever ) - do you TRULY believe that FedEx hasnt been aware of this since this legislation was introduced ? LMAO - what do you think is going to happen exactly ? They arent going to find out about this addition to the Lacey Act til a month or 2 down the road when someone tries to ship a burm and then blow up and say no to all reptiles ? You cant be serious ....

FedEx is a huge company. They will make the decision based on what is best for their bottom $$ not because someone tried to sell a burm from FL to FL through their system. Google " shipping wine through FedEx ". Dont you think they know all the little tricks ? Yet people still do it. And they still allow it. If shipping reptiles is going to be too much of a hassle for them right now, they will stop. If they think they can make it work, they wont stop. Its that simple.

Believing that a forum has anything to do with it is just

No problem! I went back and reread and there it is, second post. It used to be that there had to be intent present to commit a crime. The government realized they could prosecute many, many more people by stripping out the intent requirement and did so. Try depositing 10,000k cash into your bank account without documentation. Just because you didn't "willfully break the law" won't stop you from becoming a felon.

There is no defense in a case against the government. This isn't a logic or philosophy college course. The gov't could care less what your excuse...logic... reason is. If a snake belonging to you goes across state lines, they can prosecute you. Doesn't matter if you try to pin it on Fed Ex.

I suspect Fed Ex won't even know for 100% until a case goes to court. I also seriously doubt that Fed Ex allows people to illegally ship wine as you suggest to make an extra couple bucks off shipping. It's an absurd notion they turn a blind eye to it.

[Kyle7676]

No problem! I went back and reread and there it is, second post. It used to be that there had to be intent present to commit a crime. The government realized they could prosecute many, many more people by stripping out the intent requirement and did so. Try depositing 10,000k cash into your bank account without documentation. Just because you didn't "willfully break the law" won't stop you from becoming a felon.

There is no defense in a case against the government. This isn't a logic or philosophy college course. The gov't could care less what your excuse...logic... reason is. If a snake belonging to you goes across state lines, they can prosecute you. Doesn't matter if you try to pin it on Fed Ex.

I suspect Fed Ex won't even know for 100% until a case goes to court. I also seriously doubt that Fed Ex allows people to illegally ship wine as you suggest to make an extra couple bucks off shipping. It's an absurd notion they turn a blind eye to it.

It was late and I can see how the word willfully was misconstrued. Like I said before though, you apparently were not keeping up with the entire thread.

I was certainly not saying that this was a case of ignorance to the law. Let me break this down for you again since you obviously still dont get it.

It was brought up that from here on out, if you shipped a burm or such through FedEx, intrastate, that BECAUSE YOU READ THIS FORUM, that you would now have knowledge of FedEx taking your package outside of the state line. Because of this, you would be guilty.

I was simply pointing out that if you are shipping a snake INTRASTATE. From one address in a state to another IN THE SAME STATE, you are NOT breaking a law. Just because you read that FedEx MAY OR MAY NOT actually step over a state line with your package still does not constitute any legal wrong doing on your part.

" If a snake belonging to you goes across state lines, they can prosecute you. Doesn't matter if you try to pin it on Fed Ex. "

Now, stay with me here... Say you ship a burm from Dallas Tx to Marshal Tx ( Marshal is close to the Louisiana border ) using a local shipping service who doesnt have a processing center outside of the state. So no reason for it not to go straight down I-20 to its destination. Now, say the driver of that van decides he wants to make a pit stop to a little place he likes to go for lunch right on the other side of the border of Louisiana. So he does. With your snake in the back. Did you just commit a felony ? Of course not ! So my question is this... what is the difference between this and using FedEx ? The fact that they may or may not take your package outside the state ? How would you know they are though ? This isnt an issue of not having knowledge of the law, its an issue of not knowing what FedEx's shipping practices are. They are choosing to take packages outside of the state they are being shipped in. Not you.

Im still not convinced that FedEx takes every package to processing centers outside of state lines.

Oh, and WTF are you talking about ? It is FAR from a felony or illegal for that matter to deposit 10k into a bank account without documentation.

Of course FedEx doesnt ALLOW people to illegally ship wine. But when someone comes in and is shipping tons of bottles of " olive oil " from a local winery, is it on FedEx to open the box and make sure it is olive oil ? Of course not because they could care less. In that situation, the shipper is breaking the law. Not FedEx. They would not be held responsible.