Do you avoid morphs with known genetic flaws?

[Genetics Breeder]

I was kidding about the Deserts...

Anyhow, if your point is to contradict people, you are not successfully making that point. You're pressing the same buttons over and over, but not getting anywhere with it. Making generalized statements and presenting them as fact isn't going to work. As far as people liking spider personalities and so on, that is irrelevant to me because the spiders I've owned have been the same as any other ball I've owned. What is relevant to me is that I like spiders, have bred spiders, and will continue to breed spiders because I like them. That's something you can't contradict.

Also, going out and making an impulse purchase on a retic can't in anyway be compared to buying a spider ball python other than the fact that cash changes hands. Keeping things relevant to the topic at hand and not grasping at straws would also go a long way in presenting your case.

I guess I'm correcting what I think is wrong, not contradicting. You saying that spiders act the same also proves what I mean about the people trying to find a way to cover up for them.
Why do you like spiders? Is it just the pattern?
I compared the impulse buying of a snake that will get huge to buying based on other peoples' thoughts. Re-read the post from the other thread. People telling other people to 'just go buy a spider and not be nervous about the wobble' makes the purchasing descision biased at the vary least.

This debate is not at all new, or unique. I reckon nearly every species and breed has their own "spider wobble" that its breeders are arguing about right now, and very few of these debates are black and white. I could name a half dozen off the top of my head in the horse industry alone, and many of those diseases are a lot more harmful to the animal than the spider "wobble" is.

I will also say that I don't think that the way to change things is to come down on those who breed spiders. You're not going to do much more than rub people the wrong way, and people who feel that they're being "pushed" in any way are going to push back. Conversely, people do seem to jump onto the defensive very quickly -- sometimes a little too quickly -- when this topic is brought up.



In my mind there are two main reasons to consider ceasing propagation of the spider morph (eg., stop breeding spiders). Reason one is pretty obvious, IMO, and that is if the defect causes suffering to the animal. In the vast majority of cases, I honestly do not believe that it does. I believe that it may do so in extreme cases (though of course we can't be sure, as that sure is a can of worms debate that borders on the philosophical -- can snakes feel "suffering," not just pain?). I repeat my earlier point that I would really like to have real numbers as to how many spiders are "train wreck" cases. That's the "facts" you mentioned, and I don't have them. I wish I did.

Reason two is much more philosophical IMO. That is the desire to avoid producing and propagating anything that has a "defect" beyond just skin-deep. That's where I think that we as snake breeders are, in some ways, more cautious than breeders of other animals -- we tend to avoid any mutations that aren't color morphs, even if they may not harm the animal. I really don't *think* that the bug-eyes of the super lesser ball pythons cause them any harm, but I still won't breed lesser x lesser because I still don't want to risk producing any. Why? I dunno; I guess I just don't like the way it looks -- it seems "unnatural," somehow. On the other hand, if I produced a baby chinchilla that expressed a mutation that caused it to have tiny cute little ears, I'd probably try to breed for it (assuming the rest of the animal seemed healthy). The "unnatural looking" chinchilla wouldn't bother me; the "unnatural looking" ball python would. It's pretty much purely aesthetic.

For me, personally, spiders with a slight intention tremor (wobble) or head tilt don't bother me much. I really don't believe that those animals suffer, and honestly I have individuals of other morphs that are just as quirky. The ones that do bother me are those spiders that corkscrew or appear severely deranged in their movements. Even if they are the happiest and most contented animals in the world, I wouldn't want to propagate their genes as those actions bother me, personally. So my internal debate as to whether or not to work with the spider gene hinges mainly on what percentage of spiders are corkscrewing "train wrecks." If the number is negligible, then I don't see the gene as really that much more risky than any other breeding. If the number is significant, then I wouldn't feel comfortable working with the gene.

A third reason is that people let things slip too often. I brought up the subject before, and someone blamed human nature for it.
If people let the spider wobble slip, the caramels kinking, and any other thin