Do you avoid morphs with known genetic flaws?

[RobNJ]

Of course not. It's the same as the goldfish that have HUGE eyes sticking out of their head.
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/p...58&pcatid=2758
There are also 'bubble cheek' goldfish that have huge pouches under their eyes.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/65304419@N00/3109378507

I had these goldfish when I was a kid and I loved them.

I shouldn't even have to describe it, but obviously, the huge eyes and cheek pouches can be damaged and even POP. Yes, they can break open, and the fish will be left swimming around, until it dies, with broken loose skin from the huge pouches. It can happen from sharp rocks in the tank, the filter intake, or other fish biting. Do YOU think that's good? They die if that happens to them. People are still breeding them, saying the same thing as you are about spiders.

There is nothing in my spider's enclosure that it can hurt itself on.

Not a single person has been able to tell me why them seem to have to breed spiders.

Because we like them, and like what breeding them does in combination with other genes.

Whether you like what I say or not, if someone has the will power, they can easily avoid buying spiders, and like people always say about breeding ball pythons, if you aren't patient or don't have enough self control, you shouldn't be doing it.

While patience and self control are important in this hobby, i don't see what that has to do with will power and not buying spiders. Some people don't like spiders, many people do. The people who do like them buy them and breed them for that reason, not because we have this insatiable urge to own/breed defective animals.

Reptile vets are normally surprised that people are still breeding spiders, even after they know that they have problems.

My vet likes spiders.

The fact that people back each other up doesn't help. One post with someone saying 'spiders aren't bad. Just buy what you like' gets thanked 10 times.
The single comment made by another person, other than mine, saying 'why do people still breed them', doesn't get thanked, it just gets tons of negative replies talking about how colorful the combo morphs are with spider.

If someone can come to the table with good reasons and facts as to why spiders should not be bred and present themselves in such a manner that doesn't come off as condemnation, I would happily "Thank" their post. Doesn't mean I'll stop keeping/breeding spiders, but I could appreciate it nonetheless.

How could we live without it?

I know!!!
Pretend it's not there.

It's a little too late for that

I guess it's pretty hard, based on all of the impulsive-purchases and people regretting that they bought the baby retic at an expo, then releasing it.

Irrelevant to the matter at hand.

People need self control. I know there are people that think before they buy a spider, but when they are hearing other people constantly talking about how good it is, the decision is biased.

I've not made one purchase based on opinions of the masses, including my spider. I'm sure many others can say the same.

There are dog breeds that can only give birth through c-section. Is it going to be that bad with ball pythons in years?

If that's what it takes to get eggs out of a Desert!



Ok, so now on a more serious note...Robin said you where what, 15? My hats off to you that at that age you seem so passionate about something and are able to organize and present your thoughts. That being said, I can see why people may be fairly dismissive of your posts based on how you present them...it almost comes with an air of elitism. Discussions without lecturing will always get you feedback...now whether it's feedback you agree with or not is beyond me, but you'll get better results. You can't expect to come on here being so highly opinionated about what is a sensitive subject to many one way or the other and expect to change peoples' minds.

Other than that, all I can say is to go out and get yourself a spider....

[Genetics Breeder]

Also, just to contradict what is written above, here are the links to back what I wrote.
post 21, by interloc-
Are you saying stop breeding spiders all together. That would be a huge mistake IMO. A bad wobbler can produce a very very mild wobble and vice versa. So it's not like w could jus brew it out of em. Spider combos are amazing IMO. I would be way sadder to never be able to see a spider ever again. Also the wobble increases their personality. My spider is the best snake to handle our of my collection. He acts more like a boa. Very inquisitive and loves exploring. Everyone needs a spider in their collection. If not for breeding with, for enjoyment as part of the family.
This proves what I said about people using the 'more personality' excuse.

post 25, by DrDooLittle-
Like others have said, don't let that stop you from getting something with the spider gene.
This proves what I said about people backing each other up, like peer pressure, against the people saying that spiders should not be bred.

Of course, posts number 4,7,12, and 13 were not thanked, just negatively replied to. The rest were thanked multiple times, showing how people back each other up, making it not seem as bad.

Here is a link to the thread.
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...8-wobble/page3

I'm not trying to turn this into another argument page. If you are able to try to contradict any of the things I wrote, try to.

[Genetics Breeder]

I had these goldfish when I was a kid and I loved them.

Did you read the part about the things that can happen to them? I know people that had lots of pets as kids. The point is that people use the same excuses for breeding them. They say that they eat, grow, and breed, meaning that they must be completely normal.

There is nothing in my spider's enclosure that it can hurt itself on.

Not even close to what I meant. It was an example for the excuse of breeding them being the same.


Because we like them, and like what breeding them does in combination with other genes.

So you HAVE to have them? I like anacondas, but I wouldn't buy one, knowing that it will get huge.

While patience and self control are important in this hobby, i don't see what that has to do with will power and not buying spiders. Some people don't like spiders, many people do. The people who do like them buy them and breed them for that reason, not because we have this insatiable urge to own/breed defective animals.

That's not what I meant. People all agree that they are trying to breed them out of the problems. You must not have seen all of the posts with people saying that they were 'nervous' about getting spiders, but got one anyways.

My vet likes spiders.

Most people that are not hearing it day after day wouldn't think that they should be bred. That includes most vets that are not involved in the ball python morphs.

If someone can come to the table with good reasons and facts as to why spiders should not be bred and present themselves in such a manner that doesn't come off as condemnation, I would happily "Thank" their post. Doesn't mean I'll stop keeping/breeding spiders, but I could appreciate it nonetheless.

And I didn't? If my posts seemed rude after a while, it is because I keep repeating information, and people keep ignoring it, making other excuses.

It's a little too late for that

So you're saying that you are not able to ignore something that is there already? That just goes back to what I said about people HAVING to get what they want, if they have the money for it.

Irrelevant to the matter at hand.

Actually not irrelevant. People urge people to buy a spider and not be 'nervous' about it. It's basically impulsive and an extremely biased choice.

I've not made one purchase based on opinions of the masses, including my spider. I'm sure many others can say the same.

I'm saying that based on seeing people say something like "I'm scared to buy a spider because of the head wobble", and people responding something like "Don't be nervous about buying one, just find a good breeder and buy what you like".

If that's what it takes to get eggs out of a Desert!

I wasn't saying that in a positive way. Not to be rude, but are you saying that there is no way around getting eggs out of a desert than C-section? I know one way. Only breed the males. The females are perfectly fine in every other way. Just breed only the males.

Ok, so now on a more serious note...Robin said you where what, 15? My hats off to you that at that age you seem so passionate about something and are able to organize and present your thoughts. That being said, I can see why people may be fairly dismissive of your posts based on how you present them...it almost comes with an air of elitism. Discussions without lecturing will always get you feedback...now whether it's feedback you agree with or not is beyond me, but you'll get better results. You can't expect to come on here being so highly opinionated about what is a sensitive subject to many one way or the other and expect to change peoples' minds.

I'm not really hoping to change peoples' minds about breeding spiders. There will probably be people that will for a long time. I'm just contradicting attempts to cover up for breeding them. What some people said on that other thread was almost interesting...

Other than that, all I can say is to go out and get yourself a spider....

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

[RobNJ]

I was kidding about the Deserts...

Anyhow, if your point is to contradict people, you are not successfully making that point. You're pressing the same buttons over and over, but not getting anywhere with it. Making generalized statements and presenting them as fact isn't going to work. As far as people liking spider personalities and so on, that is irrelevant to me because the spiders I've owned have been the same as any other ball I've owned. What is relevant to me is that I like spiders, have bred spiders, and will continue to breed spiders because I like them. That's something you can't contradict.

Also, going out and making an impulse purchase on a retic can't in anyway be compared to buying a spider ball python other than the fact that cash changes hands. Keeping things relevant to the topic at hand and not grasping at straws would also go a long way in presenting your case.

[snake lab]

Hey gb. I think your overthinking things

[Serpent_Nirvana]

This debate is not at all new, or unique. I reckon nearly every species and breed has their own "spider wobble" that its breeders are arguing about right now, and very few of these debates are black and white. I could name a half dozen off the top of my head in the horse industry alone, and many of those diseases are a lot more harmful to the animal than the spider "wobble" is.

I will also say that I don't think that the way to change things is to come down on those who breed spiders. You're not going to do much more than rub people the wrong way, and people who feel that they're being "pushed" in any way are going to push back. Conversely, people do seem to jump onto the defensive very quickly -- sometimes a little too quickly -- when this topic is brought up.

If someone can come to the table with good reasons and facts as to why spiders should not be bred and present themselves in such a manner that doesn't come off as condemnation, I would happily "Thank" their post. Doesn't mean I'll stop keeping/breeding spiders, but I could appreciate it nonetheless.

In my mind there are two main reasons to consider ceasing propagation of the spider morph (eg., stop breeding spiders). Reason one is pretty obvious, IMO, and that is if the defect causes suffering to the animal. In the vast majority of cases, I honestly do not believe that it does. I believe that it may do so in extreme cases (though of course we can't be sure, as that sure is a can of worms debate that borders on the philosophical -- can snakes feel "suffering," not just pain?). I repeat my earlier point that I would really like to have real numbers as to how many spiders are "train wreck" cases. That's the "facts" you mentioned, and I don't have them. I wish I did.

Reason two is much more philosophical IMO. That is the desire to avoid producing and propagating anything that has a "defect" beyond just skin-deep. That's where I think that we as snake breeders are, in some ways, more cautious than breeders of other animals -- we tend to avoid any mutations that aren't color morphs, even if they may not harm the animal. I really don't *think* that the bug-eyes of the super lesser ball pythons cause them any harm, but I still won't breed lesser x lesser because I still don't want to risk producing any. Why? I dunno; I guess I just don't like the way it looks -- it seems "unnatural," somehow. On the other hand, if I produced a baby chinchilla that expressed a mutation that caused it to have tiny cute little ears, I'd probably try to breed for it (assuming the rest of the animal seemed healthy). The "unnatural looking" chinchilla wouldn't bother me; the "unnatural looking" ball python would. It's pretty much purely aesthetic.

For me, personally, spiders with a slight intention tremor (wobble) or head tilt don't bother me much. I really don't believe that those animals suffer, and honestly I have individuals of other morphs that are just as quirky. The ones that do bother me are those spiders that corkscrew or appear severely deranged in their movements. Even if they are the happiest and most contented animals in the world, I wouldn't want to propagate their genes as those actions bother me, personally. So my internal debate as to whether or not to work with the spider gene hinges mainly on what percentage of spiders are corkscrewing "train wrecks." If the number is negligible, then I don't see the gene as really that much more risky than any other breeding. If the number is significant, then I wouldn't feel comfortable working with the gene.

[Genetics Breeder]

I was kidding about the Deserts...

Anyhow, if your point is to contradict people, you are not successfully making that point. You're pressing the same buttons over and over, but not getting anywhere with it. Making generalized statements and presenting them as fact isn't going to work. As far as people liking spider personalities and so on, that is irrelevant to me because the spiders I've owned have been the same as any other ball I've owned. What is relevant to me is that I like spiders, have bred spiders, and will continue to breed spiders because I like them. That's something you can't contradict.

Also, going out and making an impulse purchase on a retic can't in anyway be compared to buying a spider ball python other than the fact that cash changes hands. Keeping things relevant to the topic at hand and not grasping at straws would also go a long way in presenting your case.

I guess I'm correcting what I think is wrong, not contradicting. You saying that spiders act the same also proves what I mean about the people trying to find a way to cover up for them.
Why do you like spiders? Is it just the pattern?
I compared the impulse buying of a snake that will get huge to buying based on other peoples' thoughts. Re-read the post from the other thread. People telling other people to 'just go buy a spider and not be nervous about the wobble' makes the purchasing descision biased at the vary least.

This debate is not at all new, or unique. I reckon nearly every species and breed has their own "spider wobble" that its breeders are arguing about right now, and very few of these debates are black and white. I could name a half dozen off the top of my head in the horse industry alone, and many of those diseases are a lot more harmful to the animal than the spider "wobble" is.

I will also say that I don't think that the way to change things is to come down on those who breed spiders. You're not going to do much more than rub people the wrong way, and people who feel that they're being "pushed" in any way are going to push back. Conversely, people do seem to jump onto the defensive very quickly -- sometimes a little too quickly -- when this topic is brought up.



In my mind there are two main reasons to consider ceasing propagation of the spider morph (eg., stop breeding spiders). Reason one is pretty obvious, IMO, and that is if the defect causes suffering to the animal. In the vast majority of cases, I honestly do not believe that it does. I believe that it may do so in extreme cases (though of course we can't be sure, as that sure is a can of worms debate that borders on the philosophical -- can snakes feel "suffering," not just pain?). I repeat my earlier point that I would really like to have real numbers as to how many spiders are "train wreck" cases. That's the "facts" you mentioned, and I don't have them. I wish I did.

Reason two is much more philosophical IMO. That is the desire to avoid producing and propagating anything that has a "defect" beyond just skin-deep. That's where I think that we as snake breeders are, in some ways, more cautious than breeders of other animals -- we tend to avoid any mutations that aren't color morphs, even if they may not harm the animal. I really don't *think* that the bug-eyes of the super lesser ball pythons cause them any harm, but I still won't breed lesser x lesser because I still don't want to risk producing any. Why? I dunno; I guess I just don't like the way it looks -- it seems "unnatural," somehow. On the other hand, if I produced a baby chinchilla that expressed a mutation that caused it to have tiny cute little ears, I'd probably try to breed for it (assuming the rest of the animal seemed healthy). The "unnatural looking" chinchilla wouldn't bother me; the "unnatural looking" ball python would. It's pretty much purely aesthetic.

For me, personally, spiders with a slight intention tremor (wobble) or head tilt don't bother me much. I really don't believe that those animals suffer, and honestly I have individuals of other morphs that are just as quirky. The ones that do bother me are those spiders that corkscrew or appear severely deranged in their movements. Even if they are the happiest and most contented animals in the world, I wouldn't want to propagate their genes as those actions bother me, personally. So my internal debate as to whether or not to work with the spider gene hinges mainly on what percentage of spiders are corkscrewing "train wrecks." If the number is negligible, then I don't see the gene as really that much more risky than any other breeding. If the number is significant, then I wouldn't feel comfortable working with the gene.

A third reason is that people let things slip too often. I brought up the subject before, and someone blamed human nature for it.
If people let the spider wobble slip, the caramels kinking, and any other thin

[Genetics Breeder]

g that could be wrong with a ball python, soon enough, it will get worse.

It's practically asking for it to happen. Right now, people are comparing the spider problems to a normal. After the next worst morph, they will be comparing it to the spider, debating whether they should breed the even worse morph. Spider would be the new 'normal'.

Thats what I'm really not wanting to happen. People have told me that the animal isn't in pain, it's only the minority, and a few other reasons that I should get one. I was considering getting a spider, until I re-thought what I just wrote above. Then, I decided to NEVER get anything that alters more than color and pattern.

That's not my guess, it's not a philosophy, it's something happening right now. People letting one thing slip is setting off a chain of events and negative choices in the future.

People will think that this is not true, and they would have control, not buying anything with major problems, but when that next morph appears, even better looking than spider (the new normal), people will want to buy it, with a whole new set of excuses for breeding it. It's even more difficult for people to refuse something with the breeder shoving it in their face, and other people encouraging them to buy it.

I know that the spider problems are not extremely major. Once people get more used to it, it will be nothing.
Just wait for the next worst morph. The problems are escalating. People have the easy choice to stop it now.

[Genetics Breeder]

Hey gb. I think your overthinking things

Thanks, I do too. It's alot better than underthinking. You're not the first to tell me I think too hard.

[RobNJ]

You saying that spiders act the same also proves what I mean about the people trying to find a way to cover up for them.
Why do you like spiders? Is it just the pattern?

How does what I say prove anything? I'm not trying to cover up anything...this isn't some grand conspiracy, lol. In MY experience with spiders, I have not seen anything that would remotely turn me off of them. The spiders that I have owned have been like the other balls I own. I have seen them with severe wobbles, but believe that they are the exception, rather than the rule you're trying to make them out to be. The vast majority I have seen have had slight to barely noticeable wobbles. And I keep spiders because I like how they look, no other reason. I do not take a ball python's temperament/predisposition into account when I buy one.

Just wait for the next worst morph. The problems are escalating. People have the easy choice to stop it now.

The problems are not escalating. They pop up randomly within a gene or combination of genes(ex., spider x sable) and stay within those genes. They do not spread like a disease.