Do you avoid morphs with known genetic flaws?

[DooLittle]

To answer the op's questions.... I have no interest in caramels, so I couldn't say about that. However, I love everything spider. I think spiders with high white sides are beautiful, I LOVE my bumblebee. And yes, I knew about it before we got her. I had watched several videos on you tube, with varying degrees of wobble. Yes, some of the extreme cases cam be sad too watch, but I don't think there are as many that are that extreme. Our bumblebee had a slight wobble when we first got her. You can't really even tell anymore. I think her nerves brought it out when she got here, new enclosure stressed her out. Her head would bobble a bit. The first two feedings she missed the rat on her first strike, due to head bobbing from excitement/stress, but nailed it on second strike. Since then, we never see her wobble, and she is a great eater. I think she may have it mild, where stress or feed response triggered it? Anywhoo, I would not avoid anything spider, I love them. Just maybe try to find a less extreme animal.

[snake lab]

Look. You people that sit on your soap box talking about caramels and the fact you will produce nothin but tail kinkers let me ask you a direct question. How many caramels have you bred and what was the ratio of kinkers? If you say more then 10% having kink issues your lying. I have been breeding caramels for along time. I have had many clutches of them. I would say 1 out of 20 babies has a kink. Good odds?, good lines?, pure luck? Whatever it is i can give you the answer based in doing it. Not from searching the internet and speculating. Stop feeding people who are trying to learn useless information

[Genetics Breeder]

Look. You people that sit on your soap box talking about caramels and the fact you will produce nothin but tail kinkers let me ask you a direct question. How many caramels have you bred and what was the ratio of kinkers? If you say more then 10% having kink issues your lying. I have been breeding caramels for along time. I have had many clutches of them. I would say 1 out of 20 babies has a kink. Good odds?, good lines?, pure luck? Whatever it is i can give you the answer based in doing it. Not from searching the internet and speculating. Stop feeding people who are trying to learn useless information

Actually, you must have missed the link I posted from these people with 20+ years of experience.
http://vmsherp.com/ViewPastProjects.htm

Whether they have a HUGE kink in their tail, or a very minor one only visible under an x-ray, they have one. Not just 10%. Also, that means that ALL of them have the possibility to produce extremely kinked animals.

I don't know why you would be proud of having any kinked animals, even just 10%, if you seem to have such 'high quality'. Oops, just don't look at that 10% with huge kinks, or any other problems. Color shouldn't make up for spinal problems, or any other genetic disorder.
It's also incorrect to attempt to learn only by doing something. I want a reticulated python. I'm not going to 'search the internet and speculate', I'm just going to buy one. How do you know they don't get 20+ feet long? I guess you can't take other people's warning...

To answer your question, I have not bred ANY caramels. I'm smart enough to believe it when other people say they have kinks, and not risk it with living animals.

Let me ask you a direct question. How many have YOU looked at under an x-ray?

[snake lab]

Actually, you must have missed the link I posted from these people with 20+ years of experience.
http://vmsherp.com/ViewPastProjects.htm

Whether they have a HUGE kink in their tail, or a very minor one only visible under an x-ray, they have one. Not just 10%. Also, that means that ALL of them have the possibility to produce extremely kinked animals.

I don't know why you would be proud of having any kinked animals, even just 10%, if you seem to have such 'high quality'. Oops, just don't look at that 10% with huge kinks, or any other problems. Color shouldn't make up for spinal problems, or any other genetic disorder.
It's also incorrect to attempt to learn only by doing something. I want a reticulated python. I'm not going to 'search the internet and speculate', I'm just going to buy one. How do you know they don't get 20+ feet long? I guess you can't take other people's warning...

To answer your question, I have not bred ANY caramels. I'm smart enough to believe it when other people say they have kinks, and not risk it with living animals.

Let me ask you a direct question. How many have YOU looked at under an x-ray?

You dont get it do ya. Kinking is part of the risk with caramels so is the woble with spiders. If your gonna work with the gene its something to remember. I love the caramel combos and the fact i said 10% doesnt reflect squat about my quality. Its the gene. I selectively breed lines where its not as prevelant but it still exists. If you have a problem with possibillities of genetic issues you shouldnt be involved in ball pythons. Second you can copy and paste all ya want. Until you know from experience you shouldnt be making claims like you know. Just my oppinion

[snake lab]

And yes i do look at imaging. I have a welld imaging system that i use quite often for my breeders and for any animal that may have issues. By your statements people shouldnt breed any spider combos, caramels, banannas, etc because of risk from something that may or may not come from their genetic makeup. So dog lovers shouldnt own or breed english bulldogs, pugs etc because of the inherant risk of nasal structure issues. Every animal has something that comes as a risk or a flaw in their genetic code. Now i wouldnt breed a kinked caramel obviouslly but for you to say we shouldnt breed them based on your google knowledge i think is flawed. Yes the internet is a good place to get knowledge. But you also cant believe everything you read on the internet. Now if you wanted to buy a car would you take the advice of the manufacturer or the mechanic? Think about it oh and the funniest part is your pro info at vms is coming from people selling spider combos and cinny stuff which both also have inherant genetic issues. Hmmmmm

[snake lab]

One last thing. Vms herps own words were that every one they have seen in their collection had minor deformallities so they terminated the project. So that just means the line they were working with were kinkers. Doesnt mean all are. Seriouslly look at the validity of the statement that you are going to back as gospel.

[Genetics Breeder]

You dont get it do ya. Kinking is part of the risk with caramels so is the woble with spiders. If your gonna work with the gene its something to remember. I love the caramel combos and the fact i said 10% doesnt reflect squat about my quality. Its the gene. I selectively breed lines where its not as prevelant but it still exists. If you have a problem with possibillities of genetic issues you shouldnt be involved in ball pythons. Second you can copy and paste all ya want. Until you know from experience you shouldnt be making claims like you know. Just my oppinion

And yes i do look at imaging. I have a welld imaging system that i use quite often for my breeders and for any animal that may have issues. By your statements people shouldnt breed any spider combos, caramels, banannas, etc because of risk from something that may or may not come from their genetic makeup. So dog lovers shouldnt own or breed english bulldogs, pugs etc because of the inherant risk of nasal structure issues. Every animal has something that comes as a risk or a flaw in their genetic code. Now i wouldnt breed a kinked caramel obviouslly but for you to say we shouldnt breed them based on your google knowledge i think is flawed. Yes the internet is a good place to get knowledge. But you also cant believe everything you read on the internet. Now if you wanted to buy a car would you take the advice of the manufacturer or the mechanic? Think about it oh and the funniest part is your pro info at vms is coming from people selling spider combos and cinny stuff which both also have inherant genetic issues. Hmmmmm

One last thing. Vms herps own words were that every one they have seen in their collection had minor deformallities so they terminated the project. So that just means the line they were working with were kinkers. Doesnt mean all are. Seriouslly look at the validity of the statement that you are going to back as gospel.

I guess you didn't see this:
Claims of 'perfect' animals are common, but all we've seen have shown the problem under x-ray.

Re-read what I said about taking people's word for things. I don't buy animals with known problems, just to prove to myself that it has the problems. That would be stupid. Like I said, why would someone buy a reticulated python, not believing that they get 20' long, then find out for themselves?
VMS herp also said 'every animal they had seen', not only in their collection. They also don't test their own 'claims', meaning that by their statement, all lines of caramels have kinks.

Are you saying that some of your animals have NO kinks? I know people that would pay ALOT for kink-free caramels, and from what you said, it seems like you must have some.

People on here act like they were SO particular about buying an animal with the perfect color, pattern, fading,...
but then, they don't even care that the animals either show, or will have offspring that show neurological or physical problems or deformities.

I already wrote that not all morphs have associated problems. Breeding 1000 lemon blasts and hatching a huge amount of hatchlings might give you a deformed or kinked animal, but it's not known to be associated/connected to the morph. It's just a random thing.
Breeding 1000 caramels or spiders would give you an extremely high amount that show the associated problems in varying amounts.

[snake lab]

I guess you didn't see this:
Claims of 'perfect' animals are common, but all we've seen have shown the problem under x-ray.

Re-read what I said about taking people's word for things. I don't buy animals with known problems, just to prove to myself that it has the problems. That would be stupid. Like I said, why would someone buy a reticulated python, not believing that they get 20' long, then find out for themselves?
VMS herp also said 'every animal they had seen', not only in their collection. They also don't test their own 'claims', meaning that by their statement, all lines of caramels have kinks.

Are you saying that some of your animals have NO kinks? I know people that would pay ALOT for kink-free caramels, and from what you said, it seems like you must have some.

People on here act like they were SO particular about buying an animal with the perfect color, pattern, fading,...
but then, they don't even care that the animals either show, or will have offspring that show neurological or physical problems or deformities.

I already wrote that not all morphs have associated problems. Breeding 1000 lemon blasts and hatching a huge amount of hatchlings might give you a deformed or kinked animal, but it's not known to be associated/connected to the morph. It's just a random thing.
Breeding 1000 caramels or spiders would give you an extremely high amount that show the associated problems in varying amounts.

Yes u did see there claim. And i thought i made my point clear. But ill go slow incase ya missed it. They said in the ones they saw under xray. Ok again the line they were working with obviouslly had issues. Unless they are running xrays on everyones lines how can you equate that as meaning all caramels have kinks. And no none of my caramels have kinks. Have i produced some in the 15 years of breeding ball pythons alone? Yes. But not very many. So again your saying you wont buy or work with any animal with a chance of genetic flaw. So cinnies and all combos are out, spiders and all combos are out, caramels and all combos are out, deserts and all combos are out, banannas and all combos are out, do i need to go on? You might as well get a goldfish and be done. Oh wait now they are finding hole in the head with them so i guess your out of luck with the animal hobby. Im not claiming to have kink free caramels. It can happen. What im saying i work with lines that it is not as common therefore stacking the odds in my favor.

[Genetics Breeder]

Yes u did see there claim. And i thought i made my point clear. But ill go slow incase ya missed it. They said in the ones they saw under xray. Ok again the line they were working with obviouslly had issues. Unless they are running xrays on everyones lines how can you equate that as meaning all caramels have kinks. And no none of my caramels have kinks. Have i produced some in the 15 years of breeding ball pythons alone? Yes. But not very many. So again your saying you wont buy or work with any animal with a chance of genetic flaw. So cinnies and all combos are out, spiders and all combos are out, caramels and all combos are out, deserts and all combos are out, banannas and all combos are out, do i need to go on? You might as well get a goldfish and be done. Oh wait now they are finding hole in the head with them so i guess your out of luck with the animal hobby. Im not claiming to have kink free caramels. It can happen. What im saying i work with lines that it is not as common therefore stacking the odds in my favor.

This is what I couldn't understand, in bold.

What line of caramel are you working with? Do you ever hatch any with the extreme kinks, or are they all very minor when they do hatch? If you have ones that never hatch major kinks, you could be marketing and selling them for alot more if it's proven.

[zeion97]

Wow... Just wow... <_<