Ever think that my spider may be more adapted to this world then your normal?

[rabernet]

So man just happened to find the only spider in the history of the world? Let me get this right... When a spider mates with a normal 50% of the babies are spider, 50% are normal. To suggest that one spider somebody happened to find in the wild is the only one is rediculous. Even more rediculous is the idea that because we only have record of another country finding one spider ball python, it must be the only one they have ever found.

Sorry Mike - all about facts here. There has only been one spider ever found in the wild, and that one spider was imported to Kevin McCurley.

All spiders are outcrossed direct descendants of Kevin's founding spider.

That's a well known bit of spider history. No other spider has ever been imported as a WC animal, or found as a WC animal.

[Domepiece]

Sickle Cell Anemia wasn't selected for by natural pressures though... this is a 'unrelated helpful side effect' from a genetic disorder that overall reduces the fitness of the individual. I agree with you totally, which is kind of my point about Spiders potentially being better suited for domestication. As someone with a background in science I need to draw a distinction between evolution and flaws having dumb luck positive consequences. I'm not saying evolution doesn't start with such mutations, just that it isn't what we see with Sickle Cell (which by definition reduces the fitness of the individual) or Spider Wobble (which, in captivity, doesn't reduce the fitness.) There aren't separate populations of Spider BPs living in the wild (which by the way would be the only way you can support a claim about them being 'evolved'). Being a man of science, I won't be bullish enough to make unsupported claims as fact. I can't say that they would have reduced fitness in the grasslands because I couldn't support that with real science, but if I were a betting man I'd put money on them being disadvantaged.

@ Mike - I'm not going to get into a personal squabble with you, so don't bait or I'll leave the discussion. I don't get the sense that you're contributing to your thread to learn anything, which is a real shame since you're wrong on many of your points. I'm confused how owning and breeding more spider ball pythons in plastic bins makes you better equipped to discuss evolution, genetics, or medical disorders with me. I'm speaking under the premise of what is known fact and universally accepted by people much smarter and who have done much more of their homework than you or I. You're speaking to your own personal speculation. I'm not telling you that you're wrong to be a jerk... I'm telling you that you're wrong because you're wrong.

I'd pit my background with an Evolutionary Biology degree, veterinarian sister who attended the most accredited vet school in the country and who owns her own practice, and mother who has worked in Neuropharmacology for 30 years over your experience raising snakes in an environment that doesn't even come remotely close to mimicking the wild.

This is true. However there are two sides to this arguement. Sickle cell does reduce the fitness of an individual and they are likely not to live beyond 30-40-50 years tops. But in an area where they may have died of malaria before they were able to have children this would have given them the advantage of growing old enough to reproduce therefore continueing the human race. This is why sickle cell is so prevalent within certain populations. I'm also sure that all mutation is pretty much dumb luck, as far as I know there is no intellegent design to the mutation process, nature just trys new things and if they happen to work or work better those individual have a survival advantage and that mutation is passed to the offspring creating a high volume of individuals within that species that posses that mutation or possibly creating a new species. Its all dumb luck really.

[Mike Cavanaugh]

@ Mike - I'm not going to get into a personal squabble with you, so don't bait or I'll leave the discussion. I don't get the sense that you're contributing to your thread to learn anything, which is a real shame since you're wrong on many of your points..

If I am wrong on so many points, perhaps you can point out one or two of those points and provide proof that I am wrong... should be easy enough to do considering you know so many educated people...

I'm confused how owning and breeding more spider ball pythons in plastic bins makes you better equipped to discuss evolution, genetics, or medical disorders with me...

Unlike you, when asked something, I answer it directly. If you had more experience and time with spiders and spider combos from hatchling, to adult, to reproduction, you would see that the symptoms associated with ataxia are very different then what is observed in spider ball pythons.

I'm speaking under the premise of what is known fact and universally accepted by people much smarter and who have done much more of their homework than you or I. You're speaking to your own personal speculation. I'm not telling you that you're wrong to be a jerk... I'm telling you that you're wrong because you're wrong.

OH! My appologies... I was not aware of these universally accepted facts. Certainly if something is universally accepted, there are studies or published scientific opinions on the subject? Right? Please do share these studies and opinions on the spider ball python. I would love to be educated on them... as I am sure the rest of the ball python community would too.

Sorry Mike - all about facts here. There has only been one spider ever found in the wild, and that one spider was imported to Kevin McCurley.

All spiders are outcrossed direct descendants of Kevin's founding spider.

That's a well known bit of spider history. No other spider has ever been imported as a WC animal, or found as a WC animal.

Robin - I agree with most of these facts... Only ones I don't agree with are... "There has only been one spider ever found in the wild" and "No other spider has ever been imported as a wc animal, or found as a wc animal."

Neither you or I know if another spider has been found in the wild. We as Americans like to THINK we know everything that goes on in other countries... but we don't.

Also, even if man hasn't found another spider ball python in the wild, it doesn't mean they arent out there.

[Driver]

Hello again Mike how are you doing today?
Now back to point.

Robin - I agree with most of these facts... Only ones I don't agree with are... "There has only been one spider ever found in the wild" and "No other spider has ever been imported as a wc animal, or found as a wc animal."

Neither you or I know if another spider has been found in the wild. We as Americans like to THINK we know everything that goes on in other countries... but we don't.

Also, even if man hasn't found another spider ball python in the wild, it doesn't mean they arent out there.

It would make big news if one was found. Everyone would be wondering if this spider could be one without the wobble or star gazing?

No where has anyone said that there is not any in the wild. Just that only one has ever been found.

[rabernet]

If I am wrong on so many points, perhaps you can point out one or two of those points and provide proof that I am wrong... should be easy enough to do considering you know so many educated people...



Unlike you, when asked something, I answer it directly. If you had more experience and time with spiders and spider combos from hatchling, to adult, to reproduction, you would see that the symptoms associated with ataxia are very different then what is observed in spider ball pythons.



OH! My appologies... I was not aware of these universally accepted facts. Certainly if something is universally accepted, there are studies or published scientific opinions on the subject? Right? Please do share these studies and opinions on the spider ball python. I would love to be educated on them... as I am sure the rest of the ball python community would too.



Robin - I agree with most of these facts... Only ones I don't agree with are... "There has only been one spider ever found in the wild" and "No other spider has ever been imported as a wc animal, or found as a wc animal."

Neither you or I know if another spider has been found in the wild. We as Americans like to THINK we know everything that goes on in other countries... but we don't.

Also, even if man hasn't found another spider ball python in the wild, it doesn't mean they arent out there.

Mike - the point is - all captive spiders descend from ONE animal.

[Mike Cavanaugh]

Hello again Mike how are you doing today?
Now back to point..

No where has anyone said that there is not any in the wild. Just that only one has ever been found.

Yes, but everyone is doing 3 things:
1.) Assuming that there aren't any more in the wild.
2.) Assuming that just because they don't know about it, it is safe to assume that nobody has found any more in the wild.
3.) Assuming that the spider can't be an evolved relative to what we see as the "normal" ball python because of the assumptions listed in 1 and 2.

That is a whole lotta assumptions going on...

[RobNJ]

It would make big news if one was found.

Only since the bp madness blew up...so we're looking at 20-25 years. Ball pythons and people have been co-existing for thousands of years, so it's ridiculous to say only 1 was ever found.

[Mike Cavanaugh]

Mike - the point is - all captive spiders descend from ONE animal.

I agree with that...

That doesn't mean that there aren't more out there.

It doesn't mean that the shaking of the head when excited or scared is NOT an advantage in the wild.

It doesn't mean that the corkscrewing can't be used to attract prey.

It doesn't really mean anything in regards to the topic at hand.

[Mike Cavanaugh]

Only since the bp madness blew up...so we're looking at 20-25 years. Ball pythons and people have been co-existing for thousands of years, so it's ridiculous to say only 1 was ever found.

Exactly. Lets not forget, people do eat ball pythons.... I wonder how many spiders ended up on a dinner plate. If they were out at night corkscrewing trying to attract birds, they would also probably be easier for preditors to find... like humans.

[Driver]

Only since the bp madness blew up...so we're looking at 20-25 years. Ball pythons and people have been co-existing for thousands of years, so it's ridiculous to say only 1 was ever found.

Not really. There is only the one record of the one spider being found.