Viscious Ball

[loonunit]

I disagree with a few things said/implied here.

1) ball pythons are not parrots or dogs... allowing a snake to bite you is not a reward or in any way going to motivate or encourage it to want to bite more. I have never encountered a snake that has bit (whether strike/coil or defensively strike/release) make the connection that biting in any way gets them something they want/stops behavior they don't want. Biting from a snake is an instinctive response... they do so because you smell like food, or they feel threatened by you. A bird might bite because it learns you make funny sounds when they do so, or because they learn it makes you leave them alone.... a ball python does not, or at least hasn't ever in my experience or the experience of my peers.

Have you ever had a latch and wrap ball python bite? Have you ever had a ball python bite you and NOT LET GO for 5 minutes, until you finally jammed a pencil between its jaws? Only to have it immediately look around for another way to grab hold of you? It's a very, very different experience from 99.9% of ball python bites. And I'm 99.9% certain that that particular snake felt very good about chomping on my warm, deliciously bloody mammal finger that day.

2) the OP says they feed in a seperate enclosure. I recommend reading the dozens of threads/debates on this topic, and consider the thousands of snakes that are fed properly in their enclosures that never become "cage aggressive".

Okay. If the OP said he feeds in a separate closure already, than that's what he does. And I read too quickly, so it's my mistake.

That said, I handle my ball pythons quite a lot. I have over a dozen of them. I have on more than one occasion been too lazy to remove a particular snake from its enclosure for several feedings in a row, only to have those same animals come shooting out in a very aggressive manner whenever I open my tanks/tubs, even on off-feeding days, while the rest of my collection ignored me in their usual manner. It's more pronounced during late summer. I have gotten a couple of hopeful feeding strike bites from my black pastel and het pied males as a result. They're not rocket scientists, these two, I admit it. But the feeding strikes stopped a week or two after I went back to separate enclosure feeding.

Most of the reason people feed in the same enclosure is simple convenience. It's a giant pain in the neck to do separate enclosure feedings when you have more than, oh, 10 snakes. Logistically it's impossible for large collections. But if you have one or two animals, and they are primarily pets and you handle them frequently, it's worth considering. Especially if they are already "nippy".

[loonunit]

Justin, do you mean like this?



Room Temperature Rat




Prey Temperature Hand

Hahah. Sorry, that's awesome. Sorry! *snicker*

... But I get the idea Justin's getting this without there being any rats in play?

[WingedWolfPsion]

Right, I see a lot of posts from newer keepers who seem convinced that ball pythons are trainable, the way you would train a dog or cat, and while they're not incapable of learning, their behavior just isn't the same at all. There are also a lot of misconceptions there about how dogs and cats actually learn, but that's another story.

Snakes bite because they are frightened, or hungry, and that's it. They don't bite out of revenge, or because they've learned it gets them something that they want, the way a dog or bird would--I just have to repeat that, because it bears repeating.

A snake that is feeling calm and secure, and isn't hungry, will not bite. A snake that is frightened and upset will bite, and nothing you do will make it stop trying to bite, so long as that is the way it is feeling. It will never learn that 'biting doesn't work'. Biting is all that it has...its arsenal of solutions to problems is pretty limited. The more they practice a behavior, the more they are likely to repeat it--including behavior like biting your gloved hands.

my recommendation to deal with a defensive snake is to lift the hide, and immediately pick up the snake, from the side pointing away from its head. Don't snatch it up, or grab it from above--come from the side, without hesitation, and support the snake without restraining it.

Ball pythons RARELY bite a hand that they are sitting on, if they aren't being restrained. (I've seen it happen twice, but the snake had been seriously provoked in those instances, lol).

Allowing the snake to become upset and assume a defensive posture allows it to practice defensive behavior, which, in the long long run, then becomes habitual. If you can get it before it has a chance to become that upset, it will be more receptive to taming.

I do not recommend feeding the snake in a separate enclosure. There's no point.
Instead, get yourself a snake hook or a tap stick, and start working with the animal to hook train it, or use the tap stick to defuse its hunting or defensive behaviors.
Simply by gently pushing the animal's head down so it isn't poised to strike, you can get most ball pythons to stop trying to strike, and calm down or choose to ball up instead.

Snakes are smarter than we give them credit for, but they're not very bright animals. Still, every single one of them is an individual, and has a distinct personality. Some snakes simply will not tolerate being handled by a human--humans set off their defensive instincts, and they just don't learn not to try to ward us off. It's rare in ball pythons, but it's not unheard of.

I had one adult female who we could hook out and pick up, and handle, but she would occasionally take a shot at our body while we were holding her--she did not like humans, plain and simple. I sold her.

If your snake is irredeemably aggressive, you really have only two choices--love the snake for what it is, bad attitude and all, and handle it with a hook--or, sell it to someone who is more tolerant, and get a snake with a more typical ball python temperament.

Aggressive reptiles do have their fans. You may not be able to hold them on your lap while you watch TV, but they are still lovely, and interesting.

[jfmoore]

Hahah. Sorry, that's awesome. Sorry! *snicker*

... But I get the idea Justin's getting this without there being any rats in play?

Who knows? I notice that was poor Justin's first post and what with all the expert advice, he may never come back.

I would like to pass along one tip, though, on how to get a snake to release its jaws without "jamming a pencil" in its mouth, or trying to just wait it out, as Justin mentioned. Trying to pry it off can potentially injure its delicate mouth and break off teeth, and, besides, it HURTS LIKE HELL when it realizes its "food" is trying to get away and it tries even harder to hold on.

I keep a bottle of rubbing alcohol and some q-tips in any snake room. Wet the cotton swab with alcohol and put it in the snakes mouth, preferably near where its tongue sits in the floor of its mouth, or in the roof of its mouth between the inner two rows of teeth (you're aiming here for the ducts which lead to the Jacobson's organ). But I'm making it sound difficult. In reality, once that snake gets a mouthful of that odor, its jaws will fly open. And it usually won't be in any hurry to grab you again before you unwrap its coils. It really works!

[Anatopism]

Have you ever had a latch and wrap ball python bite? Have you ever had a ball python bite you and NOT LET GO for 5 minutes, until you finally jammed a pencil between its jaws? Only to have it immediately look around for another way to grab hold of you? It's a very, very different experience from 99.9% of ball python bites. And I'm 99.9% certain that that particular snake felt very good about chomping on my warm, deliciously bloody mammal finger that day.

Yes, I have. I have been bit many times by different species of snakes. I have had a large ball python bite and coil with my thumb on it's mouth. I have had a male larger than most of our females strike from my hands down at my waste, and latch onto my chin all because he could smell a rat in the room and grabbed the first thing that moved. Every single one is the same. It is foolish to anthropomorphize an animal that is so incredibly instinctual in everything it does.

I should also mention that every single time I have been coiled by a snake, i have been able to carefully and calmly remove them. An icecube held up to the heat pits works like a charm. I admit full fault for these bites... I am not very careful about not smelling like rats around any of our snake smaller than the dumerils, as I don't jump or pull back when bit and I don't think it hurts that bad... when you own birds, your pain tolerance rises. I guarantee if you let your snake that "liked" chomping on you out at night and went to sleep, that it has not gained a taste for humans, or that it will seek you out to harm you

Okay. If the OP said he feeds in a separate closure already, than that's what he does. And I read too quickly, so it's my mistake.

That said, I handle my ball pythons quite a lot. I have over a dozen of them. I have on more than one occasion been too lazy to remove a particular snake from its enclosure for several feedings in a row, only to have those same animals come shooting out in a very aggressive manner whenever I open my tanks/tubs, even on off-feeding days, while the rest of my collection ignored me in their usual manner. It's more pronounced during late summer. I have gotten a couple of hopeful feeding strike bites from my black pastel and het pied males as a result. They're not rocket scientists, these two, I admit it. But the feeding strikes stopped a week or two after I went back to separate enclosure feeding.

Most of the reason people feed in the same enclosure is simple convenience. It's a giant pain in the neck to do separate enclosure feedings when you have more than, oh, 10 snakes. Logistically it's impossible for large collections. But if you have one or two animals, and they are primarily pets and you handle them frequently, it's worth considering. Especially if they are already "nippy".

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization

As each snake is an individual, it is theoretically possible for yours to have become vengeful mean creatures, but there are considerably more snakes for every supposed "cage aggressive" snake, whose behavior is not altered by location of feeding. There are snakes who may stop eating if you try to move them to another enclosure because it is stressful. There are snakes who will become more aggressive if fed in another enclosure... my point being, that without knowing the husbandry and set up of the OP's ball, we can't possibly give appropriate advice.

[k8nkane]

I'm really surprised at the amount of anthropomorphizing of animals in this thread.

FWIW, even dogs don't think in terms of "revenge" or "getting back" at someone. That's a human concept. Dogs do what has worked for them in the past. If you have a dog that learns it can guard one particular person from other people by snarling, snapping, biting, it will continue to do so because it can. It's not "being mean". It's being a dog.

And, no offence to snakes, but if dogs don't think in terms of vengeance or being mean, snakes certainly don't.

[Anatopism]

I'm really surprised at the amount of anthropomorphizing of animals in this thread.

FWIW, even dogs don't think in terms of "revenge" or "getting back" at someone. That's a human concept. Dogs do what has worked for them in the past. If you have a dog that learns it can guard one particular person from other people by snarling, snapping, biting, it will continue to do so because it can. It's not "being mean". It's being a dog.

And, no offence to snakes, but if dogs don't think in terms of vengeance or being mean, snakes certainly don't.

If I did, i certainly didn't mean to imply that dogs are vengeful, but rather they learn differently from snakes.

Also.... my apologies to the OP, Isee you have only posted once, and I have allowed myself to veer off topic.

[Justin05]

I feed him a small rat about once every 10-12 days. He has never refused a mouse/rat since I've had him. He's in a 45 gallon enclosure, kept at 87-90 on the hot end and 75-80 on the cool end(hides on either end). Humidity at about 70-80 percent. He's never had a bad shed either. I really hate to complain, he's in great shape besides the agressive behavior. I don't have a scale, so I cannot weigh him. That's the only time he's wrapped me. But he's bitten me on many other occasions. I try to hold him AT LEAST a few times a month. When he wrapped me I jerked a little bit, but waited it out, instead of prying him off me. I was a little worried about his teeth, but he fed with no issues 3 days later. He just never seems curious, always pissed off. Am I not feeding him enough?!? The second he sees my hand in his cage he rears his head back like he's gonna strike. I don't feed him in his cage, so I dunno what that's about. Thanks for the responses, it's appreciated. ...And I won't be getting rid of him, he is what he is, and he's still beautiful!

[Foschi Exotic Serpents]

See if he will eat every 7-10 days instead and make sure he has 2 tight fitting hide boxes in that enclosure.

It sounds like he may just be a little hungry and skittish.

A great trick is to keep a small hand towel or stick or something by his tank. Try to take him out at least once or twice a week (wait a couple days after feeding for digestion) but cover his head with the towel or touch his neck to divert his attention. Then quickly scoop him up from under his body coming from behind him. Never reach in going directly toward his head or face.

If he's in his hide, just take the hide off quickly, set it aside, and proceed with the directions above.

Once he's out, let him crawl through your hands while you support him do he doesn't fall.

If you do this regularly he will get use to it and his attitude *should* change.

With a very few BPs, you need to follow these same rules that you'd follow with many larger snakes. There are sometimes some that are just naturally skittish in their enclosures all the time. Make him feel more secure and well fed and handle him a bit more following the tricks above and you'll be fine

[snakesonaplane]

To all the people above who say snakes cannot be trained...I have to say this: LOL. Pavlov and his dogs showed us that all animals that possess primal instincts can be conditioned through repetition. Though dogs differ in the fact that they possess a limbic system, they are still slaves to the primal instincts like any other animal: they live to eat, poop and sleep. They will love you because they know to recognize and "love" the person that gives them food...and even though snakes do not understand love and act out of primal instinct, they are still the same as far as recognition goes...they recognize your scent and act accordingly. If they're under-fed and subject to harsh conditions (which initiates stress), they will be violent. If they associate your scent with threat, they will habitually strike defensively. However, they can slowly be conditioned to be tame. As I've said in another thread, for example, my python curls up and stresses out when I use any soap other than lemon scented...and every time I use lemon scented soap, she is relaxed and roaming...otherwise, she will curl up for some time before doing so.

Snakes have two process based modes (given that they are not stressed): taste (flicker tongue) and react. If the first mode gives a negative taste, it is threatening and they react by striking. If the first mode yields a positive, they are relaxed and roam the territory. It's really that simple. Same goes for motion: when they poise to strike, it's usually after tasting the surroundings and deeming them threatening.

To OP: trying washing your hands thoroughly (with different scented soaps) before handling him. The new scents will throw him off the one he's used to and then slowly you can return him back to recognize your scent as safe. As someone said above, grab him quickly when you reach...hesitation only makes them tense. They're not the brightest animals and it's very easy to condition them: just takes time and patience.

God made every creature capable of learning and adapting: but he didn't make it easy