Pine shavings

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Pine = Poison for ball pythons.

[Skiploder]

I've been keeping snakes on kiln dried pine for decades.

My snakes live long and healthy lives. In fact I would put the health of my animals up against the health of anyone elses.

Have any of you people warning about the dangers of kiln dried pine ever had any experience with it? Or are we going with more bad internet juju again?

A primer for anyone who is interested:

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...he-Pine-Debate

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The fact that there is any debate to this is reason enough for me to avoid using it. There seems to be a general consensous and whether its based on fact or it's "juju" I would prefer not to test that theory on my animals. That's just me, if it works for you and you have seen no ill effects from it, that's awesome and it makes for an interesting debate - but when people ask if Pine is okay to use on snakes, the answer is, ..maybe? To me that's not good enough, if there's any question, why risk it?

[Skiploder]

The fact that there is any debate to this is reason enough for me to avoid using it. There seems to be a general consensous and whether its based on fact or it's "juju" I would prefer not to test that theory on my animals. That's just me, if it works for you and you have seen no ill effects from it, that's awesome and it makes for an interesting debate - but when people ask if Pine is okay to use on snakes, the answer is, ..maybe? To me that's not good enough, if there's any question, why risk it?

The only reason why people think it's bad is because people have extrapolated BS data and have regurgitated the same old internet falsehoods that, when repeated over and over, somehow becomes fact.

Read the thread I linked to and if you want to debate facts instead of internet hookum we can have a debate. Until then, someone please prove to me there is a risk. Show me one person who has had health issues with their snakes attributable to kiln-dried pine.

Phenols? Aspen has phenols. Toxicity? Paper bedding does a pee-poor job of controlling ammonia. High ammonia levels are toxic.

Kiln dried pine has been used extensively in this hobby and there is not one shred of evidence that you run any risk by using it. The list of experienced keepers, breeders, experts and hobbyists using it is extensive. The list of people who have had issues attributable to using it as a substrate is non-existant.

The answer for is it safe to use?

Yes.

I would not risk or gamble the health of my snakes. I would also not advocate someone taking risks with the health of their animals. Read the thread, pay attention to the discussion regarding liver enzyme levels and kindly rethink your stance.

[AGoldReptiles]

I call it the 3 R's.
People read , regurgitate , repeat with no experience on the topic other than what they just read 5 minutes ago.

[keith88]

We put 1 part coco fiber to twp parts aspen and then 1 part moss to every 10 parts of the aspen coco mixture. I can try and get some pics. Its hard because we don't have a computer we do all internet stuff on are phones lol

[RichsBallPythons]

And the debate starts yet again.

Everyone is so quick to jump to OMG get it off pine its bad use aspen. You do realize aspen has phenols as well. And Kiln Dried Pine is fine to use if the pine smell is minimal.

Theres guys on here been using it for 10+years now problems.

[Rhasputin]

SOME pine products are dangerous, this is true.

ALL pine products should never be used, this is untrue.



I used to be one of the anti-piners. But I use pine now, and have 0 problems.

[meowmeowkazoo]

Kiln dried pine is NOT ok to use for Ball Pythons, especially not hatchlings. Pine and Cedar contain phenols which can cause significant health problems. Kiln dried pine has less phenols, but still enough to cause serious harm.

For more guidance on which substrate to use and other husbandry I recommend looking at the BP.net caresheet.

The kiln drying process removes the harmful phenols. I prefer to use a substrate that holds moisture for my ball pythons, but pine wouldn't hurt them.

I used to be anti-pine like you (then I took an arrow to the knee). But when some people on here told me about their experiences, I decided to keep an open mind and try it for myself. I also did some research, and discovered that there are NO studies that have conclusive evidence that kiln dried pine is harmful to animals. It's all just rumor and hearsay at this point.

[meowmeowkazoo]

As for the substrate I use for my own ball pythons:

I like to use a half cypress mulch half eco earth mixture. It seems to hold moisture really well. I would recommend something like that instead of pine or aspen for your balls.