Do all morphs get "head wobble"?

[rabernet]

You are the first person to say that you understood it. But still, nobody said why they weren't able to avoid buying spiders with all the alternative morphs.

Why in the world should I HAVE to avoid buying spiders? I happen to like....no, scratch that...LOVE spiders.

How do you know how long I've had reptiles?

Your own admitted lack of knowledge about the spider wobble before you went to a show, when it's one of the most talked about topics in the ball python community, as well as your admitted non-knowledge about other well known problems with other morphs.

I don't own deserts, but I know very well the discussions around them.

You may have kept reptiles longer, but you definitely haven't worked with ball pythons very long, nor have you done as much research about them as you try to come across as, or none of this would have been a surprise to you.

Your arguments in this entire thread are weak, you've back pedaled when you've been unable to define "happiness" in a snake, you "assume" that they are unhappy when they miss on a strike (guess what, normals also miss on strikes, maybe ball pythons shouldn't exist at all - they're all so stressed from missing a strike).

You're nothing more than a keyboard warrior based on observations at a reptile show, which gives you the authority now to judge everyone who chooses to work with spiders.

I hope that you you change that attitude before you plan to breed yourself and try to market yourself, because you've surely alienated yourself from a lot of potential future customers by being so smug and judgemental.

[dr del]

I said they look the most similar. Use brazilian rainbow boas as an example. They have 3 morphs. Hypo, Anery, and Ghost. You can't make more morphs of them than there already are. You have a choice of those 3. Now pretend that happened with all problematic ball pythons. You can still have hundreds of morphs. Just exclude the problematic ones.

I haven't heard about the desert problems, but I haven't been reading about them, because they are out of my budget right now anyways. I thought that was a tiger (dominant morph) pinstripe.

I don't know what you mean about lower temperature incubation.

These two I haven't heard of, probably because I wasn't going to buy the morphs.

I research the ones I will buy or think of buying. I just recently heard about the spider problem (luckily) by seeing it in person and asking about it. NO ads on kingsnake warn about it, very few morph guides do, and the only other thing is that some ads say 'it doesn't have a wobble', and I didn't know what that meant.

And, if they have kept the animals, I'm sure they are not going to want to agree with me about how bad breeding spiders is.

You are the first person to say that you understood it. But still, nobody said why they weren't able to avoid buying spiders with all the alternative morphs.

I think they do, at least with the spider morph.

How do you know how long I've had reptiles? Do you think everyone joins a forums the day they get their first pet? That still doesn't change what someone can learn in a week. It doesn't take 5-10 years to learn about a morphs problems.

You don't have to be. If it stressed an animal just a little each time it strikes and misses, or wobbles, it is different that a normally functioning animal.

So you think that snakes that were never born are going to be sad? You talk about asking a LIVING PERSON that. Not an animal that was never born. What if person A and person B had a kid, but never a second kid? Do you think their non-existent sibling would be 'sad' or 'missing out' because they were never born? Another difference is that you PLAN for spiders to have problems. People say 'if it's in the bad form of the problem, we'll just KILL IT. What's the difference? If you 'understand' like you wrote above, you agree to planning on killing animals that YOU bred, then killing them if they do not meet your standards of having limited problems. Now try to tell me that Pinstripes can't be an alternative, they don't look similar enough (for you), and that I need MY MY eyes checked.

I have 'observed' them at reptile expos, and 'have knowledge' of their problems as much as anyone else.

If you read everything I wrote, yes. It is bad, stupid, wrong, whatever you want to call it, to breed spiders.

You somehow seem to know my pets so well already.
Yes, I have 3 chihuahuas. All 3 were fixed ASAP. We never considered breeding them.
The first is a deerface, what people breeding chihuahuas don't want, because she doesn't barely have an 'apple head' at all.
She got in a fight one time and had her hip dislocated, and we couldn't tell other than her slightly limping and crying if you touched her leg. It was better by the end of the day and hasn't happened since then. The second has never had any of those problems. The most recent was given to us by the vet taking care of her, who had her for 2 weeks. He was hit by a car, then surrendered, because the owner couldn't pay for the medical bills ($1000). His entire front leg was amputated. He has none of the problems. Food is available constantly to them, so they have no chance of getting hypoglycemia.

As mentioned above woma looks the most similar but also acts nothing like a spider in combination. This is why people aren't using "alternatives" - because there aren't any. Nothing else makes anything that looks like a bumblebee or a lesser spinner.

The problem with the desert gene took years to be known - a 30 minute look at a show wouldn't have shown you it. Some of them do take years. The recent discoveries about the banana gene also took multiple generations.

The fact you watched a snake in a stressful situation ( the show ) entitles you to say nothing more than you once went to a snake show. I'm not kidding.

How they act under stressful conditions can be totally different from how they behave in their proper environment. Your "experience" is litterally none despite your inflated opinions on the matter.

Tell you what, since there are so many genetic weaknesses in dogs, why don't you go persuade them to stop breeding or keeping any breed with a problem - if you succeed in that come back to us. When they point out your hypocracy in keeping three dogs while telling everyone else they shouldn't be allowed to breed or keep them do us the courtesy of shutting up until you know what you are talking about.

Incidently the reason no ads on kingsnake mention it (or adverts for dogs etc) is because you are supposed to research before buying. You are currently sitting in a position of almost total ignorance insulting people. That's not nice.

Your comment on your moral superiority and stating that because they keep them they will never agree with you is flat out insulting. Especially since you are guilty of exactly the same thing you are berating them for from the top of your moral donkey.

You are supporting the breeding of animals with known genetic weaknesses by owning them. You can claim charity and kindness all you want - someone bred the animals you own which should have been a concept as abhorrent to you as people breeding spiders. One of them ironically has a mobility problem which could be causing it stress.

Does this mean you will be having it PTS?

You don't have to be. If it stressed an animal just a little each time it strikes and misses, or wobbles, it is different that a normally functioning animal.

And your right, I don't know how long you have been keeping reptiles, but I do know how long you have been keeping spiders and I have a fairly good grasp of how very little you actually know about ball python morphs too. And, above I gave two examples where it did, indeed, take that length of time to understand the problems and quirks associated with a morph.

The last point I can't believe I am going to have to explain.

You wish to deny all future spiders the chance to be hatched. in the parallel I gave I mentioned asking people who have lived with problems in the hope you would understand that they may be able to tell you about their quality of life. The idea of this was to explain to you that your understanding was such that you have no right to decide for any living creature whether they get to experience life in the first place.

The fact you managed to miss that is either sarcasm or idiocy - you pick one and get back to me.

As already mentioned everyone who breeds animals faces the possibility of producing an animal that needs to euthanased due to incubation abnormalities, genetic incompatibility ( happens with normals too and is unpredictable ) or injury.

dr del