Rethinking belly heat

[Hypnotic Exotic]

Let me clarify a few things. First, I would not propose a beginning keeper do this. I've kept other snakes successfully without belly heat (boas and a variety of colubrids) in a heated room. I also plan to monitor this very closely taking temperature readings of every tub and doing this slowly. Secondly, I do have a dedicated well insulated building with it's own climate control. Nothing fancy like what VPI has but I can keep it pretty toasty in there and I also live in a very warm climate (South Texas). I also have enough snakes to make this worthwhile, especially considering I'll be saving quite a bit of money 1/3 of the year by not trying to keep the building at 80 or below during the hot months and during the Spring neither the A/C or the heat will probably be needed except maybe a bit of heat at night. So the only real increase in electricity will be the middle of winter. I do realize you can get variances between tubs but even with Flexwatt, you can get some variances from tub to tub. Obviously if you live in a cool climate, you can get wide variances so I do agree that this may not work for everybody. All I'm saying is that we "might" want to re-think things hence the title of this thread

[Hypnotic Exotic]

I have a great deal of respect for the Barkers and the experience they bring. They are well respected in and out of the hobby most reciently being experts called on by USARK.

I also know they use the very best in controls and instrumentation. I am sure if she says 81 she means 81 correct. not 79-83 someplace. There is a high cost to get precision. Keeping a room at 82 perfectly is hard I would like to know what the exact range they have is. I have read lots of the comments they have made about the rising temps in the hobby Royals in particular. I believe them and I am sure they have it to work but I am also completely sure it is not as easy as it sounds.

Personally with a small collection I have each animal individually adjusted temp wise some have 88º hot spots and lower cool end temps others have higher based on how an individual acts and the shifts they make. All my animals use both hides typically 70%/30% splits. Although I trust the validity of the experience I am not sure it is prudent to suggest it across the board as signs of problems are not easy to spot for the inexperienced.

I've been thinking about this some more and I have to respectfully disagree with the claim that VPI is keeping their building EXACTLY 81 degrees. That's not possible due to how A/C units work. In order to keep it exactly that temperature, the A/C unit would have to cycle on and off constantly which would burn up the compressor prematurely (my dad is a retired A/C guy so I've a bit of knowledge on this ) With heat, you could get closer by putting it on a proportional thermostat. However, due to heat rising, you are not going to be able to keep every part of the building at one temperature no matter whether it's time for the A/C or time for the heater. The higher you go, the hotter it is. The areas closest to walls/windows are going to be hotter/cooler depending on the weather outside. Another point here is these snakes are not completely helpless when it comes to regulating their temperatures. As has already been mentioned, they can raise their temperature 2-3 degrees when digesting. Females are able to adjust temperatures when incubating eggs. I talked to my vet quite a while back (former zoo vet with a ton of experience with snakes) and he said they are also able to adjust their metabolism which explains why they can fast so long. Obviously this also can come into play when it comes to temperature tolerance. Personally I plan to ramp down belly heat and ramp up ambient heat but I plan to do it very slowly. I agree with Deborah that this is not for first time snake owners. This is something I'm going to be doing very cautiously and will be monitoring the animals very closely. But if I get rid of the fire hazard, lower electric bill except during the winter and stop having females hit the dreaded "wall", then the experiment will be well worth it. If animals start going off feed and causing problems, then I just start raising things back up and abandon it. I really do not see the downside with trying this as long as it's done cautiously.

[Mike Cavanaugh]

But if I get rid of the fire hazard, lower electric bill except during the winter and stop having females hit the dreaded "wall", then the experiment will be well worth it.

What wall are you talking about? And what fire hazard?! How will you have a lower electric bill, even in the summer?

[spitzu]

What wall are you talking about? And what fire hazard?! How will you have a lower electric bill, even in the summer?

Are we going to pretend that flexwatt isn't a fire hazard now?

And obviously it is easier to heat a room in the summer than it is in the winter. Mine reaches 86-87 after 12-1pm if I don't cool it off manually.

[Hypnotic Exotic]

What wall are you talking about? And what fire hazard?! How will you have a lower electric bill, even in the summer?

The tendency of female ball pythons to stop feeding when they reach subadult size (not all do this but it's not uncommon) is sometimes referred to the "wall". That's what I was referring to. I have experienced this so if lowering the heat could solve it, I'm all for giving it a try.
As for the fire hazard, running Flexwatt is a fire hazard, period. There's no getting around that. Yes, many keepers do run it and haven't had an issue. But the more electrical stuff you are running, the more chance of something malfunctioning and catching fire. From what I heard, it was Flexwatt that caused Bob Clark's fire and I'll bet when the dust settles it's going to be the cause of Pro Exotic's too. Obviously space heaters are fire hazards themselves but that's not what I'm running. I have a window unit that has built in heat so it's no more fire hazard than a home's central heat.
As for lower electric bill, it would be much lower in the summer by keeping the room at 81-84 (haven't determined yet where it will be) rather than 78. I live in South Texas and it gets very hot down here during the summer so by keeping the room warmer, the A/C isn't working so hard. This summer the A/C unit worked so hard due to the extreme heat that the building never cooled down where it needed to be and the compressor is now on it's last leg. The Flexwatt running didn't help matters. If I wasn't running Flexwatt and allowed the temps to just go up 3-6 degrees, I guarantee my electric bill would have been much lower and probably wouldn't be about to replace the A/C unit either. During the Spring/Fall, the days are going to be pretty close to that so it won't work hard at all. Heat would be needed on some nights but not too much. So 3/4 of the year I'm having an easier time keeping the ambient temps than it's current setting of 78 (FYI, due to the Flexwatt, the cool side of the tubs is actually 80, not 78). During the winter I will definitely see a spike but again, we don't have harsh winters too often. I understand not everybody is in this situation. If you live up North, trying to maintain these higher ambients rather than belly heat will likely cause your electric bill to go through the roof.
At any rate, this is an experiment that I'm being careful with. I'm not saying it will work for everybody but I think given the potential benefits, it's worth a try.

[piedplus]

Thanks for the great subject and I'm glad others are considering this. I've gone to cages with infrared lights, no bellyheat, and it's worked out very well for me. Temps and humidity are spot on. My BP's have done much better than last year when I had them with bellyheat in a room heated to 80 degrees. Now I can keep the room at 78 degrees or less. Much more comfortable for me.

[kitedemon]

Part of what I intended is they use accurate thermometers. The accuracy is very very high (my cheaper LOL one is +/- 0.02ºC . Many many times better than what is commonly used.) When they say 81 they mean 81 accurately. The typical range is +/- 2º I do not believe this is good enough 81º not 79º as a max. They are using very accurate instruments. Knowing temps are accurate is critical in this kind of a set up. I use an RTD platinum thermometer. I have it re-calibrated every year so I know it is correct. I would not attempt with out KNOWING what the temps actually are and that is expensive. I spend a massive amount on instrumentations for my work and know how poor most cheap thermometers are.

I am sure VPI know the temps accurately and can maintain them. I can't speak to commercial or home HVAC systems I work with lab grade gear and I can assure you that room temps can be controlled accurately. I don't know if they do, but they have good instruments.

[Mike Cavanaugh]

Are we going to pretend that flexwatt isn't a fire hazard now?

Are we going to pretend that flexwatt is now all of a sudden some kind of extreme fire hazard?

Anything with electricity can be considered a fire hazard. Is flexwatt more of a fire hazard then whatever heater you are using? Statistically, probaby not. Just like anything else, it just has to be set up correctly.

The tendency of female ball pythons to stop feeding when they reach subadult size (not all do this but it's not uncommon) is sometimes referred to the "wall". That's what I was referring to..

Considering many keepers like me with a traditional setup who have larger collections don't have this problem at all, it is probably something else that is causing your females to stop feeding.

As for lower electric bill, it would be much lower in the summer by keeping the room at 81-84 (haven't determined yet where it will be) rather than 78. I live in South Texas and it gets very hot down here during the summer so by keeping the room warmer, the A/C isn't working so hard. This summer the A/C unit worked so hard due to the extreme heat that the building never cooled down where it needed to be and the compressor is now on it's last leg. The Flexwatt running didn't help matters. If I wasn't running Flexwatt and allowed the temps to just go up 3-6 degrees, I guarantee my electric bill would have been much lower and probably wouldn't be about to replace the A/C unit either. During the Spring/Fall, the days are going to be pretty close to that so it won't work hard at all. Heat would be needed on some nights but not too much. So 3/4 of the year I'm having an easier time keeping the ambient temps than it's current setting of 78 (FYI, due to the Flexwatt, the cool side of the tubs is actually 80, not 78). During the winter I will definitely see a spike but again, we don't have harsh winters too often. I understand not everybody is in this situation. If you live up North, trying to maintain these higher ambients rather than belly heat will likely cause your electric bill to go through the roof.

Ok, in your particular case it may cost less electricity. That said, why are you putting so much money and effort into a 78 degree room?! The room could easily be 80 to 82 degrees and the traditional 88 - 90 hotspot would still work just fine.

At any rate, this is an experiment that I'm being careful with. I'm not saying it will work for everybody but I think given the potential benefits, it's worth a try

Understood. I am not trying to convince anyone that one way is right, and one way is wrong... I am just trying to get people to look at the whole picture before jumping into something that may not make sense for the average Joe.

[Hypnotic Exotic]

I keep it @ 78 because the front of the cage will get too warm otherwise due to belly heat. I really don't know how we can say Flexwatt is not a fire hazard. You are going to have to use a heater whether you use belly heat or not. I would much rather just worry about the heater than Flexwatt too. As for subadult females going off feed, this has been discussed quite a bit and is not uncommon for them to fast. I can assure you my husbandry is sound and this is actually the exception not the rule. They always go back on feed and do fine after that. Also, if this was an unknown occurrence then Tracy would not have brought it up as a benefit ( l never mentioned the problem). We don't have to agree on this. I'm sure you know what you are doing and what is best for you're situation.

[Mike Cavanaugh]

I keep it @ 78 because the front of the cage will get too warm otherwise due to belly heat.

Please note... I am not trying to argue with you by any means... I also am not trying to say the my way is right and your way is wrong.

How was the cold side getting too warm? What temperature did you have the hot side set at?

Most comercial rack systems I am familiar with are made for room temperatures of 77 - 82 degrees. Even if the room was at 82, the hot spot should have been throwing out so much heat that the cold side was too hot.