Best Way to Replace My Dead Pin?

[MMReptiles]

Force feeding is taking the mouse/rat and putting in into the mouth of the snake, and using a wooden stick to gently force the mouse completely into the snakes throat, and then holding the mouth to force it to swallow.

You assist fed, big difference

[Munizfire]

It's not the Outback Reptiles most people know about, they were more of a smaller breeding biz.

Yes they did warn me, and unfortunately things do happen. Even if it is a small deal I would be more than happy to get some of the money I spent replaced. Seeing $180 wasted just picked at brain a bit.

Hope you work it out in the most convenient way possible!

Let us Know!

[akaangela]

You took a gamble. The gamble was could you get a picky eater to eat and live. $180 is not very much for a female pin, but they warned you that it was a picky eater. You could have passed and spent more to get a good feeding animal but you didn't. How much would you have spent (LAST year) for a female pin? Not mind you how much they go for today.

Granted it really sucks to loose any animal, but issues come up sometimes when you breed. As a breeder that has had a picky eater I will tell you that when, if I sold an animal like that I would MAKE sure that the buyer knew that there was NO garentee on her. It sounds like that is what they did. "You know this animal doesn't like to eat" and a price of almost half of what I have seen pin females go for was loud and clear.

IF they are willing to work with you, then good for them, but they shouldn't be expected to "give" you anything. Especially since it lasted 2 months. There is NO mar on their reputation (IMHO). In fact I think they are being very generous.

[Skiploder]

You took a gamble. The gamble was could you get a picky eater to eat and live. $180 is not very much for a female pin, but they warned you that it was a picky eater. You could have passed and spent more to get a good feeding animal but you didn't. How much would you have spent (LAST year) for a female pin? Not mind you how much they go for today.

Granted it really sucks to loose any animal, but issues come up sometimes when you breed. As a breeder that has had a picky eater I will tell you that when, if I sold an animal like that I would MAKE sure that the buyer knew that there was NO garentee on her. It sounds like that is what they did. "You know this animal doesn't like to eat" and a price of almost half of what I have seen pin females go for was loud and clear.

IF they are willing to work with you, then good for them, but they shouldn't be expected to "give" you anything. Especially since it lasted 2 months. There is NO mar on their reputation (IMHO). In fact I think they are being very generous.

In concept, I agree with everything you are saying - however:

The buyer is a teenager. There is no way in h*ll I would sell a non-feeding animal to a teenager. No knock on Tiffany, but even keepers with a lot more experience under their belts have issues getting non-feeding young balls to eat.

What good is a 48 hour warranty on an animal that can take months to starve itself to death? That animal was apparently a problem eater and they sold it on the cheap to a kid.

I'm loathe to sell animals to kids period. If one comes along that appears to have a pretty level head, I'll gladly make an exception on some species - but I would make damn sure that the snake had no known issues.

However, I would not sell an animal - especially a baby with known eating issues- to a minor. No way, no how.

[akaangela]

In concept, I agree with everything you are saying - however:

The buyer is a teenager. There is no way in h*ll I would sell a non-feeding animal to a teenager. No knock on Tiffany, but even keepers with a lot more experience under their belts have issues getting non-feeding young balls to eat.

What good is a 48 hour warranty on an animal that can take months to starve itself to death? That animal was apparently a problem eater and they sold it on the cheap to a kid.

I'm loathe to sell animals to kids period. If one comes along that appears to have a pretty level head, I'll gladly make an exception on some species - but I would make damn sure that the snake had no known issues.

However, I would not sell an animal - especially a baby with known eating issues- to a minor. No way, no how.

I sorta disagree with you. I have met some very very experienced teen keepers. The OP said she had had experience with non feeding snakes. She (what sounded like to me) implied she had a high level of experience with balls. At what point do you trust a person to know their level of skill? IMHO it was her parents duty to know what she is getting into. Yes the seller SHOULD have warned her. But, again IMHO, to not sell something to a person just because they are a teen is wrong. How do you know that the next person, an adult, saying the same thing is any better? When do you trust their word about their level of experience? Is a teen that has had 4 years experience any worse than an adult (and at what age do you consider a person a responsible adult) that has had the same amount of experience? How long do you have to have snakes to be experienced?

If it where me I would never had had this animal up for sale to the general public, for the simple reason I don't trust people (no matter how old they are). I would have either sold or given it away to someone I absoultly KNEW could help a snake that was a non feeder.

At one time or another most of us overestimate what we think we know. Who's fault is it? The OP learned 2 very important lessons. First thats she was not nearly experienced as she thought she was. Second that when you over estimate yourself bad things happen. The saddest part is a poor snake had to die for her to learn this.

This could have just as easily happened to an "adult" as to a teen.

[Skiploder]

I sorta disagree with you. I have met some very very experienced teen keepers. The OP said she had had experience with non feeding snakes. She (what sounded like to me) implied he had a high level of experience with balls. At what point do you trust a person to know their level of skill? IMHO it was her parents duty to know what she is getting into. Yes the seller SHOULD have warned her. But, again IMHO, to not sell something to a person just because they are a teen is wrong. How do you know that the next person, an adult, saying the same thing is any better? When do you trust their word about their level of experience? Is a teen that has had 4 years experience any worse than an adult (and at what age do you consider a person a responsible adult) that has had the same amount of experience? How long do you have to have snakes to be experienced?

If it where me I would never had had this animal up for sale to the general public, for the simple reason I don't trust people (no matter how old they are). I would have either sold or given it away to someone I absoultly KNEW could help a snake that was a non feeder.

At one time or another most of us overestimate what we think we know. Who's fault is it? The OP learned 2 very important lessons. First thats he was not nearly experienced as she thought he was. Second that when you over estimate yourself bad things happen. The saddest part is a poor snake had to die for him to learn this.

This could have just as easily happened to an "adult" as to a teen.

The seller should have had the maturity and the common sense to not sell a problem feeder to a kid - period. I refuse to sell animals to teens for all sorts of reasons - and I have no problem telling them why. It's very simple - you look the kid in the face and say:

"This particular animal is a problem eater - pick another one."

The nature of teenagers is that they overestimate their abilities and that their mouths tend to write checks that their butts can't cash. Responsible adults factor that in and refrain from selling problems animals to underage kids - regardless of the price.

If the animal had enough of an issue that they we're selling it at such a steep discount, they should have sold it to an adult with specific experience dealing with problem feeders.

That's the difference between someone trying to offload their problem on someone else and someone who gives a crap about both the animal they are selling and the person they are selling it to.

Let me reiterate - reputable businessmen and women do not offload their problems on kids. I don't care how steep the discount.

Period.

I know a very responsible teen and have sold a few animals to him under the conditions of right of first refusal. This kid is more of an adult that most 30 year olds I know.

Having said that, dealing with an animal that won't eat is beyond the skill-set of most keepers. Regardless of how mature and responsible this kid is, I would not sell him an animal that was not eating.

[akaangela]

Ok, I am not looking for a fight, but I do feel strongly about this so here it goes.

You said you would sell this animal to an adult with specific experience with problem feeders, right? So how many animals would an adult have to have with picky eaters to be experienced enough for you to sell it to them? The OP stated

" The day I bought her I was told she was a picky eater, but from dealing with several picky eating snakes before, I was confident enough that I could get her on food. "

Now she didn't say if the picky snakes she had dealt with where old or young, but it wasn't like she had never had one that didn't want to eat. Also she was here on the forum, with many many experienced people, to give her advice and mentor her. I think her age has less very little to do with it.


<sigh> I am not looking for a brawl but clumping all teens into those that write checks that they cant cash is not fair. I know so many "adults" that do the same thing. How many threads have we seen where an adult has lost an animal? Do we automatically assume that it was due to their age or do we assume that it was due to their lack of knowledge or just bad luck (or for that matter just being stupid)?

It just irks me when people say "teens can't be trusted". Teens are human. What in heavens name are parents for if not to make sure that the child knows what they are getting into? Age should have less to do with the ability to care for something than experience.

As I said I wouldn't have sold this snake to anyone, no matter what age, in the general public.

[fluffpuffgerbil]

Ok, I am not looking for a fight, but I do feel strongly about this so here it goes.

You said you would sell this animal to an adult with specific experience with problem feeders, right? So how many animals would an adult have to have with picky eaters to be experienced enough for you to sell it to them? The OP stated

" The day I bought her I was told she was a picky eater, but from dealing with several picky eating snakes before, I was confident enough that I could get her on food. "

Now she didn't say if the picky snakes she had dealt with where old or young, but it wasn't like she had never had one that didn't want to eat. Also she was here on the forum, with many many experienced people, to give her advice and mentor her. I think her age has less very little to do with it.


<sigh> I am not looking for a brawl but clumping all teens into those that write checks that they cant cash is not fair. I know so many "adults" that do the same thing. How many threads have we seen where an adult has lost an animal? Do we automatically assume that it was due to their age or do we assume that it was due to their lack of knowledge or just bad luck (or for that matter just being stupid)?

It just irks me when people say "teens can't be trusted". Teens are human. What in heavens name are parents for if not to make sure that the child knows what they are getting into? Age should have less to do with the ability to care for something than experience.

As I said I wouldn't have sold this snake to anyone, no matter what age, in the general public.

Thank you for this post.
I for one am a teen, and though I do not yet have any ball pythons of my own, I have successfully kept many pets, including reptiles, all of which are alive and thriving. I have kept the most pets out of my whole family and brought a sick dragon back to health with my sister helping as well, because that lizard is both of ours.
I study like crazy before getting a new member of my family, and I feel that age doesn't matter when it comes to maturity or ability to keep animals. I met this young boy at a reptile event at Petco who bred his own snakes and either was or starting to breed Bearded Dragons. He had to have been no older than 13. He had ball pythons, crested geckos, bearded dragons, cornsnakes, king snakes...
I've seen more adults take worse care or be less responsible or capable with their pets than teens.
If I did, however, breed snakes, and happen to have one that would not eat, I would not sell it to /anyone/ unless I was absolutely sure that it would be in good hands. That, or I'd keep it to make sure it ate before selling it.

[CoolioTiffany]

I do not think the force-feeding method would have worked with her IMO. She was very stress prone so I wouldn't have risked doing so with her. The force-feeding method does not seem humane to me and I would not use that on a snake.

Honestly I thought I could get this snake to eat. But, as Skiploder said, she basically slowly starved herself which took more than some 15-day guarantee a breeder could give me. After a while, and even in the beginning, she didn't have much muscle tone or strength. I saw her get weaker and weaker as the weeks passed. I thought I could do it because I volunteered at a reptile sanctuary for nearly two years and have seen/delt with about every single problem in a reptile you could think of.

But, sometimes we simply cannot get an animal to do what we want. I do wish that I was much more informed and warned about her eating habits. If it was seriously brought to my attention, I would have reconsidered. But only one line was said to me about the picky eating, and that was, "She is also a picky eater." The level of picky eaters I've delt with wasn't to that extreme as the Pin was.

I would completely understand if a breeder didn't want to sell a snake to a teen. I don't even sell my snakes to teens. I don't take it as offensive if someone didn't want to sell to me, but I do stand by my intelligence of snakes at my age (seeing that most teens could look the other way about a living animal, especially a "stupid" snake). I probably would be thanking the breeder if he didn't sell me the Pin in the first place so I wouldn't get this worked up over my money.

I know snakes will die that you invest your money into, and getting into this hobby that is becoming very clear. I suppose I am saying that the money I spent towards the snake did mean something to me. Not gonna get into my personal life, but if my father, knowing his financial situation, gave me the money that I spent towards an animal that just starved itself to death, you bet I want something in return no matter what it is. Even if a portion of the money was given back to me I would be completely fine.

As this happened nearly a year ago, I am still fortunate that the breeder will work something out with me. I have not taken offense to any posts in the thread; I was just posting to see what would be the best way to replace my dead Pin. But thank you for your responses..

[Skiploder]

Ok, I am not looking for a fight, but I do feel strongly about this so here it goes.

You said you would sell this animal to an adult with specific experience with problem feeders, right? So how many animals would an adult have to have with picky eaters to be experienced enough for you to sell it to them? The OP stated

" The day I bought her I was told she was a picky eater, but from dealing with several picky eating snakes before, I was confident enough that I could get her on food. "

Now she didn't say if the picky snakes she had dealt with where old or young, but it wasn't like she had never had one that didn't want to eat. Also she was here on the forum, with many many experienced people, to give her advice and mentor her. I think her age has less very little to do with it.


<sigh> I am not looking for a brawl but clumping all teens into those that write checks that they cant cash is not fair. I know so many "adults" that do the same thing. How many threads have we seen where an adult has lost an animal? Do we automatically assume that it was due to their age or do we assume that it was due to their lack of knowledge or just bad luck (or for that matter just being stupid)?

It just irks me when people say "teens can't be trusted". Teens are human. What in heavens name are parents for if not to make sure that the child knows what they are getting into? Age should have less to do with the ability to care for something than experience.

As I said I wouldn't have sold this snake to anyone, no matter what age, in the general public.

Angela:

The problem with people buying snakes in general is that many people lose interest and give them up.

That problem becomes more prevalent with teens. They move out, they go to college, they meet boys or girls - you get the picture. This is not an adults "good" teens "bad" issue.........it's a reality check.

The Gerbil and Tiffany may be really nice kids who love their animals. That's just great. However I know of few people - forget them being teens - who know how to deal with a non-feeding neonate.

When I meet a teenager whose parents are into keeping snakes as much as their children are or who indicate that they will take care of the animal when the kid goes to college - I'll usually sell.

But not problem feeders - you and I are in agreement on that.

Don't take this the wrong way, but when Tiff so readily figured she could get this little snake to eat is I prime example of overestimating abilities. Did she learn a good lesson? Maybe.

She still doesn't know how to get a problem feeder to eat and is out $180. Maybe the lesson she learned is "Beware of Adults Trying to Make a Quick Buck."

Tiffany - keep us posted. I sure hope this guy stays true to his word.