WhyDoPetstoresCarryHeatRocks?

[Jay_Bunny]

While I'm not advocating their use, I'd love to "hear" from one person who has burned a reptile with one or at least shot the temp of one.

I had a bearded dragon that got impacted. The vet recommended putting him in a critter keeper with a heat source and to watch him closely. We put him in a critter keeper and because we couldn't use heat lamps (melt the plastic) and I didn't have a UTH, we used a heat rock we had bought but then never used because I had heard not to use it. Well my lizard could barely walk but he was able to get on that thing for heat. He ended up with burns on his belly. He didn't live long after that due to the impaction but I did witness burns.

I work in a Petsmart and I will steer people away from heat rocks every time I see someone looking at them.

And its not a matter of the temperature getting hot enough to literally COOK a reptile. People have experienced temperatures in their racks reach a little over 100 and their snakes suffered damage due to high temperatures or so I have read. If you put one on a thermostat or rheostat, then like a UTH, it can be safe, but MOST people walking into a pet store for their first reptile are not going to think of that because they haven't done all the research. They haven't talked with hobbyists about how to properly keep their new reptile. I have actually had to step in and correct my department manager because she was recommending the wrong kind of bulb or wasn't recommending UVB lighting for bearded dragons.

And I'd say over half the people wanting to come into the store to buy a bearded dragon don't want to spend $15-25 on a UTH, and then another $20 on a rheostat when they can just spend $20 on a heat rock. Why spend $12 on a good basking bulb for your new bearded dragon when you can spend $8 on this cool blue light instead.

[Skiploder]

I use a heat lamp and a aquarium. nothing wrong with that. but i dont use the heat lamp by itself i have a UTH. additionally aquariums are just fine just not space efficient nor good for humidity so extra care is needed.

I fondly remember the days when heat lamps and glass aquariums were cadillac set ups.

[tcutting]

I fondly remember the days when heat lamps and glass aquariums were cadillac set ups.

I think the reason they were is because they are more showcase like then tubs.. or standard racks. But like i said, they require more attention because of the big open top for controling humidiy. Other than that, i see no issues with them.

However I sense that soon i will be moving towards a rack setup because i have a few new wants, and caging is far cheaper with tubs/racks.

[Skiploder]

I think the reason they were is because they are more showcase like then tubs.. or standard racks. But like i said, they require more attention because of the big open top for controling humidiy. Other than that, i see no issues with them.

However I sense that soon i will be moving towards a rack setup because i have a few new wants, and caging is far cheaper with tubs/racks.

No the reason they were is because all this other stuff wasn't available.

Getting back to heat rocks, the biggest issues are that (1) they are used without temperature regulation and (2) they - and other sources of belly heat - often confuse animals that need higher ambient temps and/or bask to regulate body heat.

In other words, an animal adapted to using radiant heat from the sun and being bathed in heat is not physiologically adapted to receiving thermoregulation from a single small source on it's belly and rapidly losing it to the cooler ambient air above it.

We've had this discussion before. A hot spot is for replicating in captivity a method for the animal to raise it's body temperature to it's desired core level. The ambient is roughly the core temperature of the captive animal and the cool end gives the animal an area to lower it's core temp if it gets too hot.

People who keep a coachwhip, for example, on belly heat with an ambient that is too low will subject their snake to a couple of things that could cause it to become stressed and injured.

First, coachwhips bask at extremely high temperatures and are heliotherms. You can find them basking out in the open on rocks where the temps are well over 100 degrees. If you put it on a small UTH set at 100 degrees it runs the chance of burning itself.

What? How can that be?

Well beacuse that poor animal is going to have a heck of a time ever reaching it's target temperature. You are forcing it to receive heat in a way it was not biologically designed (belly heat/convection) when it is programmed to be bathed for a relatively short period of time from above in intense radiant heat. It is now being forced to stay in contact for an unnatural amount of time on it's ventral surface in an effort to maintain it's core temp. In other words it's basking too long on a part of it's body that was not meant to be in contact for a lengthy amount of time to a hot surface.

How do I know? I used to breed coachwhips. While I gave out husbandry sheets to new buyers, people used to try to keep them too cold and heat them from below like they would a ball-python. I saw a lot of these animals getting thermal burns/irritation from relatively low belly heat temps because they were forced to sit for unnaturally long time periods on UTHs.

In a similar manner a bearded dragon (which is a heliotherm and thermoregulates by immersing it's body both from overhead heat from the sun and by convection from heated surfaces) will stay in contact for an unnatural amount of time with only a belly heat source. It's taking in heat from convection on it's belly and losing heat to the ambient air above it. It's forced to take heat from a relatively small source in a way that's thermally inefficient and confusing. Hence it stays in contact with the belly heat too long because it can never satisfy it's biological heating needs. Dragons are not as efficient at feeling localized temps but rather take their input from both dorsal and ventral sources.

Hot rocks are a crappy way of heating any reptile. But I still maintain that for every one real hot rock horror story, I can produce many more heat lamp and belly heat accidents.

[tcutting]

No the reason they were is because all this other stuff wasn't available.

thats a good point. but then again i wasnt around "back in the day" when that was the only option...

and damn good info in the rest of that post.

[Homegrownscales]

I agree that any heat source can and will be dangerous without proper equipment. That's why I find it crazy that Petstores carry heat rocks, lamps, pads, sometimes a crummy rheostat, but no thermostat. All of these things should always be sold in conjunction with a thermostat.
All of these issues that come from folks having problems with their pets really are because they didn't do the proper research. I'm sure if the people buying the coachwhips a. Listened to the breeder, or b. Read a good informational book, or c. Researched online they would have figured out the proper way to care for them. Or they shouldn't have gotten one in the first place. Same with the beardies. I see it all the time with my baby beards so I prevent against it as much as possible.
Just saying it's more over laziness, stupidity, or cheapness that kills or injures these animals.


Check out what's new on my website... www.Homegrownscales.com

[Jay_Bunny]

But thats the thing. While WE are hobbyists who love our reptiles and will get them the proper set ups and equipment, MOST people out there just want a cheap, cool pet they can show off to their friends. And they don't want to dish out hundreds of dollars to do it. I have countless customers coming into the store wanting a bearded dragon. Often enough they want to be able to purchase the dragon and all the enclosure's equipment for less than $100. This isn't really possible and they get all bent out of shape when you start telling them they will need all these special lights and heating elements.

Should pet stores carry thermostats. Heck yea. Will they, probably not. Without thermostats, heating elements burn out easy and malfunction. This makes the customer need to come back and buy a new one. (Just my opinion on the subject). Not to mention, the average customer doesn't want to have to buy yet another piece of equipment for their lizard. Once, I was going over all the things a lady would need for a chinese water dragon. When she added up the cost of the enclosure, lights, heating, bedding, thermometers, etc, she looked at me and said "But the lizard is only $30. Why do I have to buy all this stuff for it?" People don't want to pay more money for a cheap pet. WE do because we understand what these animals are and what they need. But we are hobbyists, not casual keepers that think of reptiles as disposable pets.

[Redneck_Crow]

I use pine.

I've used heat lamps.

And back in the roaring 70s and 80s all my snakies were kept in aquariums.

But many people today tell me that those things are the hallmark of a bad keeper.

Just saying.......

I used aquaria for my snakes way back when. My snakes bred and did fine except for the occasional funky shed. The ones in my rack do fine and shed better, so that is what they are kept in. I think that I could provide very good conditions for a snake in a tank if I tinkered around, but I'm lazy and the rack is so darn much easier. The snakes do great, so all is well in my little corner of the world.

I haven't had a heat rock short out on me and in the late 70s-early 80's I used them. What made me opt for Flexwatt is that a member of the herp society I belonged to brought in a heat rock that had burned up and we got in a few rescue snakes with burns from folks who kept them on heat rocks--sans any temp control, of course. The obligatory messed up green iguana too.

Currently I use Flexwatt for heating. I find that it's easy to use and does the job. My system is on a thermostat and I get good temp control.

I've never used a heat emitter inside of a cage. I can't give you any personal experience. I tried a heat lamp on the screen way back when and it didn't keep the temps where I wanted them. It might have been the old analog stick-on-the-glass thermometer wasn't accurate, but that was what was available. I have a nifty little point and read number now, and boy, don't I love technology.

I do think that most folks who use a heat rock aren't going to have a burnt reptile. I do think that there is a possibility there and that I feel safer and love the degree of control I get with Flexwatt and a thermostat. Years back I used a dimmer switch to control the heat and fiddled around to get it where I wanted it. I didn't have any burnt snakes, but I also think that thermostats are a wonderful thing and I'm glad that I have one now.

[Skiploder]

I think one of the most misunderstood pieces of reptile husbandry is the undertank heater.

It's often blindly recommended as the best and safest source for heat.

But is does virtually nothing for ambient temps.

In my other posts in this thread I've kinda danced around this but I'll just come out and say it:

If you hook a piece of flexwatt up to a proportional thermostat and set it to 94 degrees in a tank or a tub where the ambient temp is too low, you are running just as big a risk as the poor schlub who stuffs a hot rock in the tank.

In order to maintain it's POTZ, that animal is going to have to spend the majority of it's time on that hot spot. Believe me - a snake is not going to get a thermal burn quickly thermoregulating on a 100 degree hot rock - just like a varanid will not suffer thermal burns basking with a proper flood light setup.

It will get a thermal burn having to park it's butt on a 94 degree UTH because it's forced to thermoregulate inefficiently and is being kept at suboptimal ambient temps.

Again, a 100 degree hot rock can only cause a thermal burn if the animal is forced to stay on it for an extended period of time. An animal is forced to spend dangerous amounts of time on contact heating devices because the keeper is not providing the proper husbandry. Yes the hot rock is a crude tool and is not recommended, but they don't just magicially burn reptiles.

That risk exists with any UTH, heating pad or similar device. That's why it is so darn irresponsible to blindly recommend under-belly heat without taking into consideration the ambient temp of the enclosure or the type of animal. Most diurnal animals benefit much more from a combination of radiant and convection heat. Contrary to popular opinion, BPs do not need belly heat to digest food. They need to maintain a POTZ. In order to do that they need a an ambient temp in the middle of that zone, a hot spot to heat up and a cool area to cool down.

[fluffpuffgerbil]

When she added up the cost of the enclosure, lights, heating, bedding, thermometers, etc, she looked at me and said "But the lizard is only $30

^--- That's what bugs me most about some people.
I see every pet I buy as priceless. My bearded dragon was $50. I paid probably around $200 for the rest of his equipment that day(With a little help from mom) and spent more money than I would have liked to on his food and UVB lamps every six months. But I got a pet that needed that, so I'm going to make sure he's the healthiest and happiest he could be.
I bought a sick Bearded Dragon from a bad petstore for $75. I knew she was sick and I wanted to get her out of there.
My sister and I spent over $200 on just fecals and medicine to get her healthy. Last fecal the vet told me that she probably just has a natuarlly high count of coccidia..(We did 3 or 4 doses of medicine and I gave her Reptaid for a while. She should have been cleared of the coccidia, but it was still at a 4 count. She seemed happy enough)

And I'm planning on getting a BP hopefully in January. I've calculated that I'll need maybe $100 dollars +/- for the set up not counting the snake which would be nice if I could get for $20.(I just want a normal male)
And I'll take him to the vet if there is anything wrong, whereas someone like that lady who didn't want to care properly for that WD, if her $20 snake got sick and died, I'm sure that she'd just go out and buy another one.

Now, back on subject and off rant.... I figured not to use a heat pad or heat rock with a bearded dragon because I read or was told(I don't remember) that the dragons have less heat-sensing feeling on their bellys so if they're sitting there and getting burned, they barely know because they can't feel it. They feel heat from above, therefor, it's easy for them to get burned if you don't have a rheostat or a thermostat paired with it.