Interesting Twist on Toffee Project

[Freakie_frog]

While interesting this isn't the first time we have seen this in the Ball Python world. There are other traits that share a different Phenotype appearance but appear to fall on the same Locus. Examples of this are YB and spector, Leopard and pied, any of the BEL complex. This is however the first time two recessive traits have had such drastic phenotype differences and yet been compatible.

One thing I suspect is that Toffee's are simply a weaker form of Albino that as it ages gains the ability to produce melanin and thus getting the brownish tone to them. We see this already in some Hypos and axanthics where as they age the gene seems to weaken just enough to cause a slight change in appearance, or could hormonal production as they mature be responsible? I've seen spiders loose their color altogether and BEL get yellow stripes like an Ivory after hormones kick in.

Just food for thought.

[dr del]

Hi,

What worries me about it is the possibility for fraud it creates.

If I buy a toffee how do I know it isn't a toffino?

If I buy a female het toffee how do I know it isn't just a het albino?

I mean it isn't like a BEL where breeding it instantly lets you see what it was made of - you have to keep the animals long enough for any colour change to kick in to tell the difference between a toffee or a regular albino - and even if it colours up it could just be a toffino.

We all know there are dishonest people out there who just let out a whoop of joy.


dr del

[koloo921]

Thanks for sharing

[Russ Lawson]

Hi,

What worries me about it is the possibility for fraud it creates.

If I buy a toffee how do I know it isn't a toffino?

If I buy a female het toffee how do I know it isn't just a het albino?

I mean it isn't like a BEL where breeding it instantly lets you see what it was made of - you have to keep the animals long enough for any colour change to kick in to tell the difference between a toffee or a regular albino - and even if it colours up it could just be a toffino.

We all know there are dishonest people out there who just let out a whoop of joy.


dr del

I agree that with this project it will be extremely important to be careful about the source of the toffees. I am really curious to see how the toffino looks next to a toffee of similar age though - especially at adult sizes. If they are impossible to distinguish, it could create some serious problems down the road with the less honest people trying to pass off toffinos as pure toffees. Not to mention that some are already wondering if het albinos had been passed off as het toffees in pairs with real het toffees. I don't think that would have happened yet because nobody knew what an adult toffino looked like (or to my knowledge even if they went through a colour change at all), and they would be only a couple years away at most from having that come back to bite them in the butt if there was a difference from the pure toffees.

[Blue Apple Herps]

Hi,

What worries me about it is the possibility for fraud it creates.

If I buy a toffee how do I know it isn't a toffino?

If I buy a female het toffee how do I know it isn't just a het albino?

I mean it isn't like a BEL where breeding it instantly lets you see what it was made of - you have to keep the animals long enough for any colour change to kick in to tell the difference between a toffee or a regular albino - and even if it colours up it could just be a toffino.

We all know there are dishonest people out there who just let out a whoop of joy.


dr del

Which why it will be important to only buy from trusted sellers. No different than buying regular hets IMO. I do think it will be easier for many to get in on the project because so many already have albinos in their collection. So all they have to do is get a het toffee male and they can start producing.

[mainbutter]

What worries me about it is the possibility for fraud it creates.

If I buy a toffee how do I know it isn't a toffino?

If I buy a female het toffee how do I know it isn't just a het albino?

In the carpet python world, this is always a big concern. With the 88% designer intergrade jaguars being produced nowadays, how do you know that when you're purchasing an IJ or jungle that it isn't an 88% intergrade sibling that someone is trying to pass off as something easier to sell?

For that matter, how do you know that when you buy a female het toffee that it isn't just a normal? Until you get a chance to breed and prove it out through offspring, it's only as much of a gamble as the person you are buying it from is trustworthy.

[Russ Lawson]

While interesting this isn't the first time we have seen this in the Ball Python world. There are other traits that share a different Phenotype appearance but appear to fall on the same Locus. Examples of this are YB and spector, Leopard and pied, any of the BEL complex. This is however the first time two recessive traits have had such drastic phenotype differences and yet been compatible.

One thing I suspect is that Toffee's are simply a weaker form of Albino that as it ages gains the ability to produce melanin and thus getting the brownish tone to them. We see this already in some Hypos and axanthics where as they age the gene seems to weaken just enough to cause a slight change in appearance, or could hormonal production as they mature be responsible? I've seen spiders loose their color altogether and BEL get yellow stripes like an Ivory after hormones kick in.

Just food for thought.

If the alleles for leopard and pied fell on the same locus, it would be impossible to get leopard pieds. It is more likely that they are located in close proximity on the same chromosome if in fact the "all leopards are het pied" bit has some semblance of truth to it. However, I think this idea people have may only be due to the fact that leopard was tied into the pied project by Pete Kahl from the get-go. I would expect to start finding that the leopards that being produced from crossing the mutation into others aren't all het pied.