Sneak peek!

[Foschi Exotic Serpents]

I did say that more than once. They are genetic blackbacks. That part is obvious. And yes some cinnamons have a nice blackback pattern but not like these. This clutch is all genetic blackback. Before i can market these as any specific name other than genetic blackback, I do need to see if there is a super form or if it's just dominant. I've seen a couple gargoyles that have a solid blackback but considering that most have a continuous stripe, these are probably not het reds. Of course the deep blushing makes me eager to see what they will produce when bred together. Like I said, I'm in contact with other breeders who have known lines of GBB's about this clutch.

Either way. My female did prove out and gave me 7 genetic blackbacks. 4 of which are cinnamon combos, and 3 of which are quite possibly fire combos but I'm waiting for them to shed before I can be sure. like I said, the color of these photos is way off. The cinny blackbacks are not even close to being the right color for just cinnamons. Besides, I know what the cinnamons I own normally produce and these 4 are completely new. I've always been partial to cinnamons and these are not just cinnamon. This is a clutch where the outcome leaves no room for doubt about the female being at least a dominant genetic gene.

[Foschi Exotic Serpents]

Not trying to rain on your parade, as those are some great looking Cinnies. Not to mention that the dame is smoking too, but if she is a Het Red, Lace black back or Green Pastel.... You didn’t hit the Gargoyle.

Yes the Het red, Lace Black Back and the Green Pastel are all genetically black backs, but they are not the only genetic black backs. Also the Blackhead is not a black back as it is supposed to have a gold pin stripe down its back. Markus Jane has also been working with a morph they call a Black Velvet since at least 2005. Not sure about the NERD version but they appear to be different.

There are genetic black backs that are just that.... Black backs. We happen to have a few black backs in our collection to include a Cinnamon.

Personally I think you have proven your beautiful girl to be a nice Genetic Black back ... at a minimum. Maybe you can still prove her out to be more than just a beautiful genetic black back in the future.


Congrats again on those beautiful babies and on proven that girl genetic!

Maybe I should have clarified.. Proven lines with a super. Proven co-dom blackbacks. But even if my girl is a dominant gene with no super, that doesn't matter with my plans for her.

[Luke Martin]

Well, as of yet, there are only 3 proven lines of genetic blackback.. The het red, the laceback, and RDR's blackhead. Considering that my female is too dark on top to be a laceback and too light everywhere else to be a blackhead, she must be an excellent representation of a het red. Therefore, I'm calling these het reds unless any future breedings prove otherwise.

I don't get it...one post they're het reds until proven otherwise...now they're not and just genetic black backs? I've produced MANY black back cinnamons and combos that look almost identical to yours. I'm not saying the mom isnt' a genetic black back, she is a very nice example and it could be genetic, but I think you're getting ahead of yourself, then having to backpeddle when someone says its not what you think it is.

[Redneck_Crow]

Here is another quick phone pic. It captured their color a little better but still not accurate.. Don't worry. I'll definitely show them off when they shed

I'd pick this one little snake alone over both of the parents. IMHO, they outproduced themselves, which ain't a bad thing at all.

[Foschi Exotic Serpents]

I don't get it...one post they're het reds until proven otherwise...now they're not and just genetic black backs? I've produced MANY black back cinnamons and combos that look almost identical to yours. I'm not saying the mom isnt' a genetic black back, she is a very nice example and it could be genetic, but I think you're getting ahead of yourself, then having to backpeddle when someone says its not what you think it is.

I'm not backpedaling anything. I know what I said. It's obviously genetic. My cinnamons do not produce blushed out and lavender tinted (at hatching) blackback cinnys. I'm sorry but I've never seen a cinnamon produced by anyone that looked like that and it was just a cinny.

When comparing to try to make a call on the GBB the female may be, she more closely resembles a het red than the others. I said she must be. Why am I repeating myself??

Then (for those who need an explanation for their holier than though ways) I thought about what I'd said and how I didn't consider the difference between the proven co-dom lines I'd listed (you know, the ones that have a super form) and the genetic BB's that are the dominant lines. Plus, again, like I said (this is getting tiring) I considered the cinny babies have no stripe. Gargoyles usually have a stripe.

The point is, that female proved beyond a shadow of a doubt to be genetic. I know this is a fact because I know what my cinnys would look like otherwise.

Does it really matter if I wanted to call them gargoyles the first day and then realize they are probably a dominant gene and not a co-dom gene? Personally, I'd rather them be dominant blackbacks. My blackback project is just that. I don't want a stripe in what I plan to produce.

So go find someone else to try to put down if it makes you feel better. It isn't going to work in this situation because I got exactly what I wanted out of that unproven female. Who (oh my god!) is not just a nice normal!

[Luke Martin]

No reason for the attitude about it. I was just trying to figure out your way of thinking. This isn't the first time you've hatched something that you thought it was something else although there is no need for me to bring up old threads as I wasn't attacking you at all. Sorry if you took it that way...I have no problem with dinking and trying to prove things out but one clutch doesn't mean that something is genetic without a shadow of a doubt. Again...you're getting ahead of yourself. I'm not saying that the female is genetic or just a normal...she could be genetic or you just got a clutch of some black backs. Just because you got one clutch of some black backs really means nothing but the female is "possibly" genetic. I've had clutches of black backs and clutches of striped stuff from opposite looking adults. You can be mad about what I say all day long but it doesn't change the fact that you obviously get ahead of yourself. The excitement of hatching babies is always great but you need to know what you have before you start posting everywhere that you have something new or "accidentally" produced something higher end than what you did. It makes you look like you don't know what you're talking about. Have a great day

[Foschi Exotic Serpents]

Actually it's only the second time so go ahead and bring up old threads. It happens all the time in this hobby. Plus, the first baby I thought was something else, actually did turn out to be combo so it was a win win either way. I did produce something higher end than what I was lead to believe.

That aside. I stand firm with the notion that this current clutch proved out that particular female. They are BB. I mentioned het red because they do carry those traits, especially the other 3 babies. Then when I started thinking about the red ax being the super, I realized I need to see what I get next year from a breed-back before I can be certain on the line of BB.

So, in 16 years of working with local breeders, keeping herps, and my own measly 5 years of personal breeding... I've jumped the gun once and almost jumped it twice.

Oh lord call the firing squad.

[mommanessy247]

Better study your morphs a lil better as chocolates and cinnies Look NOTHING alike as i have both

thx richs. those two are definitely different but i'm tellin' you i've seen some that looked identical but then i guess it coulda been the lighting in the pics.
i thought both had the same milk chocolate colored blushing on a black background...

dont both of them end up lookin' somewhat like normals? or do they stay that milk chocolate brown?
i apologize if these seem like stupid questions but i ask simply cuz i do not know and i'm seeking the knowledge.

[Foschi Exotic Serpents]

Cinnamons have a bit more of a cinnamon or burgany color to them. In the dark markings and blushing. The eye stripes are either lighter (dark ivory colored) or barely noticeable. Plus some cinnys have more of a crazy and swirly pattern along the sides.

Some people have a hard time distinguishing between black pastels and cinnys as well. The same things apply tho. Black pastels are often darker, less aberrant, the head color and eye stripe color are different, and they often have a higher contrast between colors.

[VicShell]

congrats on a beautiful clutch of babies momma is smokin hot great color and pattern and i hope they turn out to be whatever they are regardless you have some smokin babies i would love to have one thanks for sharing