Cage aggression question please help

[Egapal]

Sorry. I'm a bad skimmer and get in a hurry sometimes....especially with my screwed up schedule. I guess my main concern with your first post was that you said the snake would not associate the keepers hand with food if fed in the cage. I just don't think they care what's in their cage. I don't think it has anything to do with aggression but more that kingsnakes will eat every day if you feed them. Anything in their cage that moves is fair game.

What we are having is a common misunderstanding. Let me re frame the argument. When we feed in a separate enclosure to avoid cage aggression we are saying that we want feeding to only happen in a tub that way when the snake is in the tub it will think "OK I am in the tub and now is the time to strike at stuff" We then hope that when the snake is not in the tub it thinks "Ok something is moving over there but I am not in the tub so it must not be food, I bet its just a hand I won't strike at it." The problem is thats not at all what goes on for the snake. The snake decision to strike has nothing to do with where it is. Its not associating the tub with feeding or your hand with food. Its seeing movement, its hungry or scared and its striking. Once we stop thinking that cage aggression is something we can fix by feeding in a tub then we can start addressing the real problem.

[Brandon Osborne]

What we are having is a common misunderstanding. Let me re frame the argument. When we feed in a separate enclosure to avoid cage aggression we are saying that we want feeding to only happen in a tub that way when the snake is in the tub it will think "OK I am in the tub and now is the time to strike at stuff" We then hope that when the snake is not in the tub it thinks "Ok something is moving over there but I am not in the tub so it must not be food, I bet its just a hand I won't strike at it." The problem is thats not at all what goes on for the snake. The snake decision to strike has nothing to do with where it is. Its not associating the tub with feeding or your hand with food. Its seeing movement, its hungry or scared and its striking. Once we stop thinking that cage aggression is something we can fix by feeding in a tub then we can start addressing the real problem.

No misunderstanding. I was agreeing with you on most points. Although I do tend to disagree with the notion that striking has nothing to do with where the snakes are at. Snakes will associate their cage with feeding if they are fed there. Whether it's a mouse or a hand movement, they are more than likely going to go for it or at least be in the alert feeding state. I've seen this with every type of snake I've worked with.

[PyramidPythons]

Ed, I think it is really possible that your Cali King is pushing its limits and seeing just what it can get away with. Since you are now feeding it properly and it is gaining weight and strength, the most important thing in it's mind now is to avoid "grabby hand" and being handled. Kings and Milks are very well known for being bitey and flighty, though I have seen several that are very mild mannered and perfect gentlemen and ladies. These particular Kings/Milks have been handled every day save for feeding day and the day after. The handlings don't have to be for long periods, either.....15 minutes every day seems to help.

My suggestion would be to wear a t-shirt around all day long and then place this near the hide where your Cali King hangs out the most. Leave it in there for a couple of days and allow it to get used to your scent. Maybe this will help it to realize that your scent is associated with home and that you aren't as big a threat as it thinks.

On the matter of feeding outside of the enclosure...some do and some don't. I feed all of my snakes in a separate tub because I found that feeding some of them in the enclosure made them very cage defensive. This was especially true of my BCI boa, who had never tried to bite me even once until I made the mistake of feeding him a couple of times in his enclosure. However, with my Corns, they don't rightly care where I feed them, just as long as their getting fed and I haven't had any problems with feeding them in their enclosure when I've been rushed to get feeding done. It really is a personal preference. You could maybe try feeding it inside of the enclosure, to see if that helps with the aggression....and if it doesn't, maybe go back to feeding in a separate tub or whatever you prefer.

At any rate, I think if you keep up with your gentle handling and don't allow the snake to "cow" you (ie. don't back off and put it down if it bites you, this just teaches it that biting gets it free of you, etc.), then with time it may quiet some. Though the others are right...there are just some Kings and Milks that have that quarky personality that make them real buttheads to keep. Best of luck!

[Egapal]

No misunderstanding. I was agreeing with you on most points. Although I do tend to disagree with the notion that striking has nothing to do with where the snakes are at. Snakes will associate their cage with feeding if they are fed there. Whether it's a mouse or a hand movement, they are more than likely going to go for it or at least be in the alert feeding state. I've seen this with every type of snake I've worked with.

I have yet to see any proof that snakes associate a location with feeding. I also don't have any reason to believe that they would. Do you have any evidence that supports that? Do you have a hypothesis as to why they would? Can you explain how you have seen this? What is the sample size, how many snakes have you worked with and of what breed?

[Brandon Osborne]

I have yet to see any proof that snakes associate a location with feeding. I also don't have any reason to believe that they would. Do you have any evidence that supports that? Do you have a hypothesis as to why they would? Can you explain how you have seen this? What is the sample size, how many snakes have you worked with and of what breed?

How many snakes do/have you owned? I've seen it with many different species. I do not work in a lab, nor am I a scientist. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you, but I have over 20 years of experience keeping and breeding more species of snake than you can probably imagine. Snakes are instinctual animals, but are more intelligent than most people give them credit for. Maybe it is not association, but more of a conditioning behavior. Either way, I guess we will agree to disagree. No harm done. I'm always happy to share information I've experienced first hand.

Merry Christmas

[Egapal]

How many snakes do/have you owned? I've seen it with many different species. I do not work in a lab, nor am I a scientist. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you, but I have over 20 years of experience keeping and breeding more species of snake than you can probably imagine. Snakes are instinctual animals, but are more intelligent than most people give them credit for. Maybe it is not association, but more of a conditioning behavior. Either way, I guess we will agree to disagree. No harm done. I'm always happy to share information I've experienced first hand.

Merry Christmas

I would love to hear more about your first hand experiences. In order to show evidence for cage aggression you would have to have worked with a number of snake of the same species some of which you fed in their cage, some that you fed outside their cage and then have witnessed more aggression from the snakes fed in their cages. All I am saying is that you are right, snakes are more intelligent than most people give them credit for. I believe that many species are more than capable of telling a human hand from potential prey regardless of how they are fed.