So would you consider a Pied Genetically Incomplete Dominate?

[Russ Lawson]

Wouldn't you then see pieds pop up in clutches of leopard x leopard?

I'm sure there were pieds in there as Greg has had several leopard pieds, leopard pastel pieds, and a couple leopard spider pieds the past few years. However, I find it doubtful that leopard is an allele of the pied gene as Joe suggested. Because the leopard mutation popped up early in the breeding with pieds, it's very likely a good number of leopards are het pied, but I don't think enough leopard breedings have been done to say that all are 100% het pied; though there may be some chance that the two genes are located close to each other on the same chromosome, and that they are more often than not inherited together. From what I've seen of the mutation though, I believe it is an entirely separate mutation that just got mixed up with pied early on and as such many leopards out there are het pied (I have seen 50% and 66% possible hets for sale).

[tonkatoyman]

Wouldn't you then see pieds pop up in clutches of leopard x leopard?

Perhaps the reason you do not see pied's is because the leopard gene works like the platty daddy genetics. Platties can make lessers but lessers together do not make platties. It requires the platty sib to make a platty daddy. The leopard gene may be a dominant gene that allows the pied to come forth, but only when mixed with a pied gene...I believe it is possible in genetics for one gene to be dominant over another but recessive to others. I have always heard that baldness is dominant when mixed with the male "Y" gene but recessive when matched with the "X" in woman. I may be wrong but there it is just the same, something to chew on.

[Serpent_Nirvana]

Perhaps the reason you do not see pied's is because the leopard gene works like the platty daddy genetics. Platties can make lessers but lessers together do not make platties. It requires the platty sib to make a platty daddy. The leopard gene may be a dominant gene that allows the pied to come forth, but only when mixed with a pied gene...I believe it is possible in genetics for one gene to be dominant over another but recessive to others. I have always heard that baldness is dominant when mixed with the male "Y" gene but recessive when matched with the "X" in woman. I may be wrong but there it is just the same, something to chew on.

With regards to the bolded statement, I believe that baldness is due to a number of genetic factors and highly exacerbated by testosterone (hence its appearance more commonly in men), but if you change the example of "baldness" to "hemophilia," you're right.

Actually what happens is that hemophilia is still "recessive" in men (XY), it's just that the Y chromosome is little and dinky and doesn't carry the "hemophilia" gene at all, so if the one and only copy of the gene (on the X chromosome) is defective, the man will express hemophilia. If the man happened to have Klienfelter syndrome and have an XXY karyotype with only one of the X's carrying a defective hemophilia gene, and the other carrying a normal hemophilia gene, the defective gene would act as recessive and the man would not have the disease.

Anyway, I do kind of like your premise about the leopards. I think it's conceivable that the gene could sit on the same locus as the piebald gene, and act as dominant to wild-type but recessive to piebald.

If leopard x leopard only equals leopards, but leopard x non-leopard piebald ONLY gives piebalds (and normals), and leopard pied x leopard pied can produce pieds AND leopards (non pied) that would suggest that they're on the same locus ... Right?

Otherwise I do think the linkage theory makes a lot of sense.

[JLC]

It's enough to make one's head explode.

I just want a pied...a plain ol' every day, uncomplicated, sweet-as-pie pied...

[JoeEllisReptiles]

Okay here is what I think is going on.

Imagine you have a Male visual Leopard (ALWAYS Het. Pied).

-Leopard pattern gene allele on one loci and the Pied gene allele on another loci on the same chromosome.

-We are assume the Leopard allele can not exist unless there is a Pied allele. (always carry over together with this line.... maybe complete linkage?)

-We will consider this its own morph (Leopard always Het. Pied) ....

-Leopard is a incomplete dominate pattern morph that is ALWAYS Het. Pied.


Now I am going to call Hets. from the Classic Pieds "Classic Het. Pieds"

- One Pied gene allele on a chromosome

- The Classic Pied gene allele is on the same loci as the Leopard's Pied gene allele.



Now if you breed the Male Leopard (Het. Pied) X Female Classic Het. Pied you get Leopard Pieds. This will be a pair of Pied gene alleles on one loci (one from the Male and one from Female) and a separate Leopard gene allele on another loci (From the male) that is incomplete dominate and can not exist without the presents of the Pied allele.
So now we have a homozygous Pied with one Incomplete Dominate Leopard gene allele. This would be Greg's original Leopard Pied that produced clutches with Half 100% Het. Pieds and Half Leopard (Het. Pied).

Now when you have two Leopards (Het. Pied) breed you will produce (Keep in mind that the Leopard allele will always have a Pied allele with it) 25% Super Leopard Pieds, 50% Leopards Het. Pied, and 25% Normals.

You can relate it to a Pastel X Pastel breeding and that is why you can still get 25% normals. But keep in mind that you can not separate the Leopard gene allele from the Pied gene allele.... so you can not get any Classic Het. Pieds or any Leopard Pieds. This is all assuming that the Leopard gene allele is incomplete dominate and not dominate and we are breeding Leopard (Het. Pied) X Leopard (Het. Pied)

I believe the Leopard Pieds Graiziani produced from the Leopard X Leopard breeding are Super Leopard Pieds. A pair of alleles from the Pied gene and a pair of alleles for the Leopard gene both showing at the same time together.

In Theory

Every Het. Pied from a Leopard (Het. Pied) X Normal will be Leopard (Het. Pied)
Every Visual Pied from a Leopard (Het. Pied) X Classic Het. Pied will be Leopard Pied.
Every Visual Pied from a Leopard (Het. Pied) X Leopard (Het. Pied) will be Super Leopard Pieds.
Every offspring from a Super Leopard Pied X Normal will be Leopard.
You can not have a Super Leopard on its own without it being Pied.

This is how I think the Leopard gene works. I maybe wrong but time will tell. I am not super up to date with my genetic terms so some maybe a little off.

Thanks

Joe Ellis