Question for Bill & Tom & Anyone Else with "Specials"

[jluman]

From the Specials I've seen it would seem to be pretty easy to miss one, I mean it isn't like the "Special" was purchased as a morph in the first place. Same thing applies with the likes of "Het. Super Stripes" all morphs have good and bad examples so I don't think it's unreasonable at all to imagine that a "Special" and the "Daddy" Gene carriers are the same thing.

That said I look forward to seeing what a "Mojave Daddy" would look like if it isn't a Crystal.

I'll post pics when the mojave daddy (if I actually did hit one) is out of the egg. Even without it I am 100% sure that special isn't the same as the hidden gene to make a platinum.

The hidden gene/platty sib male that sired my platinum looks like a normal. I have produced offspring from hidden gene/platty sib x normal. All of the offspring looked normal. All of the platty sibs that Ralph have produced look normal.

I have not produced specials yet, but I have talked to Tom Baker about them multiple times. Tom says that the special hatchlings are obviously discernible from the normals in a clutch, and from the specials and combos that I've seen I believe him.

As an example of how visible the special gene is, here is a super pastel special:


Here's a regular super pastel for comparison:


I will agree that it's possible that the original special female might not have been the most obvious example of the morph. If I remember correctly, Tom got her as an adult. As an adult maybe she looked less obvious. I seem to remember seeing a pic once, but I don't remember what she looked like. As kind of a related example, here are two adult het russo girls:

This one looks kind of "mojave-ish" but a different color:


This one just looks more like it's just a light normal:

[Patrick Long]

You go Jeff!!!!

[RandyRemington]

Remember that RDR has produced at least one known homozygous hidden (a normal looking female from platy X platy). Tom has produced the homozygous special and it is far from normal. So I think the different supers/homozygous are the clincher that hidden and special are different if anyone wants to argue subtle het differences.

[jluman]

Remember that RDR has produced at least one known homozygous hidden (a normal looking female from platy X platy). Tom has produced the homozygous special and it is far from normal. So I think the different supers/homozygous are the clincher that hidden and special are different if anyone wants to argue subtle het differences.

Excellent point Randy!

[AaronP]

I'll post pics when the mojave daddy (if I actually did hit one) is out of the egg. Even without it I am 100% sure that special isn't the same as the hidden gene to make a platinum.

The hidden gene/platty sib male that sired my platinum looks like a normal. I have produced offspring from hidden gene/platty sib x normal. All of the offspring looked normal. All of the platty sibs that Ralph have produced look normal.

I have not produced specials yet, but I have talked to Tom Baker about them multiple times. Tom says that the special hatchlings are obviously discernible from the normals in a clutch, and from the specials and combos that I've seen I believe him.

As an example of how visible the special gene is, here is a super pastel special:
[IMG]http://www.jefflumanreptiles.com/product_images/uploaded_images/super_pastel_special.jpg[/IG]

Here's a regular super pastel for comparison:
[IMG]http://www.jefflumanreptiles.com/product_images/j/687/2010msuperpastelphg01__22634_zoom.jpg[/MG]

I will agree that it's possible that the original special female might not have been the most obvious example of the morph. If I remember correctly, Tom got her as an adult. As an adult maybe she looked less obvious. I seem to remember seeing a pic once, but I don't remember what she looked like. As kind of a related example, here are two adult het russo girls:

This one looks kind of "mojave-ish" but a different color:
[IMG]http://i811.photobucket.com/albums/zz35/jefflumanreptiles/2010_Clutches/clutch27_eggs.jpg[/MG]

This one just looks more like it's just a light normal:
[IMG]http://i811.photobucket.com/albums/zz35/jefflumanreptiles/2010_Clutches/clutch33_eggs.jpg[/MG]

Okay I see now. See no one has really focused on sharing information on the "Special" gene animals making discussions like this really important to those who are not entirely familiar with a project, in this case I was not "in the know" about the "Special" gene project.

Thanks Jeff!

[Python Dreams]

Jeff,
I cannot wait to see Mojave Daddy! Congratulations! Post Pics!!!!!!
First off for the Butter Crystals... I really wanted to produce the first Butter Crystal and Butter Spider Crystal (have to really get the bee naming right before I called them anything), so I picked up a yearling Pastel Butter Spider male last summer. He stopped eating shortly after he got here. He stayed small enough where I decided to breed the Pastel Crystal male to the Pastel Special female instead. Hopefully this year he will knock it out to produce a Killer Bee Butter Crystal!
As for BHBs line of Crystals... He has told me that his Het Crystals (thats what he calls them) are not visible in anyway. I do believe that he has produced a few Lesser Crystals.
As for my line of Specials not being visible. I always tell this story. I owned a detailing business and one of my clients kids sold me the first Special female for $100. I was very new to Ball Pythons and had a Pastel breeder male with a bunch of small females, so I was excited to pick a female up that would breed that year. I thought she looked cool, almost hypoish to me, so I posted pics of her, but got responses like nice normal. So I thought nothing of it. When she hatched her first clutch it was 7 eggs bred to a Pastel. 0.1 Pastel Special, 1.0 Special, 0.1 Pastel, and 0.0.4 Normals. I decided that I would keep the really nice Pastel female because she was night and day prettier than the other. I also called the Special male a Halfstel since I thought he tried so hard to be a Pastel, but just didnt quite make it. If I knew what I know now, I would have bred him back to his mother and produced among the first of the white snakes! Err... well.... White and Orange snakes! Once I produced the Crystal, I thought back about that Pastel female and how stunning she was and who her mother was. That is how I produced Pastel Crystals so early in the project!
The point of that long drawn out story is, if I can pick out a Pastel Special and a Halfstel, opps I mean Special, out of my first 7 eggs ever, then I would guess that just about any experienced keeper could tell a Special from a normal. Mine have a Vanilla-esque look, kinda yb, kinda Fire, but not quite any of those. Dont really look like normals, but I dont have any normal hatchlings to compare them to. Heres three from my last clutch (crappy photo).

[AaronP]

The point of that long drawn out story is, if I can pick out a Pastel Special and a Halfstel, opps I mean Special, out of my first 7 eggs ever, then I would guess that just about any experienced keeper could tell a Special from a normal. Mine have a Vanilla-esque look, kinda yb, kinda Fire, but not quite any of those. Dont really look like normals, but I dont have any normal hatchlings to compare them to. Heres three from my last clutch (crappy photo).

Well I think part of that has to do with just being familiar with your animals. For example In 2009 I sent out a P. Het. Albino girl to a breeder for loan. She didn't prove out but he sent me my share of the hets, which was a 1.2. Well I could easily tell which of those three had the most influence from their mom simply cause they had more blushing in their patterns but that's because I knew what mom looked like. But that's what selective breeding is, breeding animals to get a specific trait, maybe it's blushing, or a total lack of blushing, or maybe even a black back. It's just that in your case it turned out to actually be a morph.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the Special stuff, I'd love to get my hands on a Special male, I'm just saying that at first glance I don't think I would have thought there was anything going on there either but I'm glad that there was and that you've been able to build a reputation on that!

[Python Dreams]

That really wasnt the question, and it is not selective breeding. I wasnt selectively breeding the female to produce any combos, or lighten up existing combos. I was breeding morphs to a normal to reproduce the morphs. Holding back the Pastel Special female could have been considered selective breeding, but once the Special proved out it was what it was.
When you have a reproduceable morphs with a Super at what point does it not become selective breeding? How is a visible difference between a proven morph and normals just selective breeding? How is breeding any morph not selective breeding from what you just said?

[LadyOhh]

Here you go, Aaron.

They are pretty obviously significant..

http://heathersherpsblog.blogspot.co...cial-blog.html

[AaronP]

That really wasnt the question, and it is not selective breeding. I wasnt selectively breeding the female to produce any combos, or lighten up existing combos. I was breeding morphs to a normal to reproduce the morphs. Holding back the Pastel Special female could have been considered selective breeding, but once the Special proved out it was what it was.
When you have a reproduceable morphs with a Super at what point does it not become selective breeding? How is a visible difference between a proven morph and normals just selective breeding? How is breeding any morph not selective breeding from what you just said?

What I meant was that you held that animal back because of how it looked, obviously the majority of the motivation was that it was a Pastel and a female that you needed, if it were an ugly pastel female would you have held it back anyway?

You probably would have if you cared more about the Pastel gene but frankly, it was a stroke of luck, at least with the way you've put it.

Anyway, Jeff has answered my question so at this point we're just talking to be talking. But thanks for rambling with me.

Here you go, Aaron.

They are pretty obviously significant..

http://heathersherpsblog.blogspot.co...cial-blog.html

Thanks Heather.