The Pine Debate

[Skiploder]

We've established that pine and cedar and aspne all contain phenols. What we haven't established is whether the phenols in pine pose a health risk to snakes.

What has also been established is that paper beddings - especially Carefresh, unlike wood bedding, do a piss-poor job of inhibiting the bacterial degradation of urine into ammonia.

Like phenols, ammonia has been implicated in all sorts of respiratory and other health ailments.

Sooooooo - while we're discussing the bugaboo that is pine, let's bring in the proponents of Carefresh and other paper beddings and ask if they've noticed an increase in health issues.

..........and let's pose some questions to the group: Keeping these things in mind - We can smell the phenols in pine. We can't smell the phenols in aspen. There are no phenols in paper beddings. Paper beddings are almost completely ineffective at inhibiting the conversion of urine into ammonia.

(1) What is the difference in phenol levels in pine and aspen? (Kids, don't go spouting BS that aspen doesn't contain phenols - they do. Not everything you read on the internet is true).

(2) At what level do phenols become a health hazard?

(3) Does that level kick in before the human olfactory system can detect it?

(4) Should the ability of a bedding to block or inhibit the conversion of urine to ammonia factor into bedding choice?

(5) If phenols are established as a health concern, and ammonia is established as a health concern - why do we demonize the purported phenol risks but blithely ignore those associated with ammonia?

[wilomn]

We've established that pine and cedar and aspne all contain phenols. What we haven't established is whether the phenols in pine pose a health risk to snakes.

What has also been established is that paper beddings - especially Carefresh, unlike wood bedding, do a piss-poor job of inhibiting the bacterial degradation of urine into ammonia.

Like phenols, ammonia has been implicated in all sorts of respiratory and other health ailments.

Sooooooo - while we're discussing the bugaboo that is pine, let's bring in the proponents of Carefresh and other paper beddings and ask if they've noticed an increase in health issues.

..........and let's pose some questions to the group: Keeping these things in mind - We can smell the phenols in pine. We can't smell the phenols in aspen. There are no phenols in paper beddings. Paper beddings are almost completely ineffective at inhibiting the conversion of urine into ammonia.

(1) What is the difference in phenol levels in pine and aspen? (Kids, don't go spouting BS that aspen doesn't contain phenols - they do. Not everything you read on the internet is true).

(2) At what level do phenols become a health hazard?

(3) Does that level kick in before the human olfactory system can detect it?

(4) Should the ability of a bedding to block or inhibit the conversion of urine to ammonia factor into bedding choice?

(5) If phenols are established as a health concern, and ammonia is established as a health concern - why do we demonize the purported phenol risks but blithely ignore those associated with ammonia?

While these are excellent questions and I too am curious, I must wonder if perhaps your wife is on vacation.

You seem to have a LOT of time for thought this last week or so. LOL

[Skiploder]

While these are excellent questions and I too am curious, I must wonder if perhaps your wife is on vacation.

You seem to have a LOT of time for thought this last week or so. LOL

My wife and kids are in Oregon visiting the in-laws and I'm working nights.

In addition to my increased posting I re-did the joists on the decks, installed a new dishwasher and installed new hardwood floors in the living and dining rooms. I also re-organized the herp building, built a new large arboreal cage and am working on an incubator made out of the old dishwasher.

The new cage before I sealed it and installed the sliding glass (4' tall, 3' wide and 2' deep).







They'll be back next week..........

[WingedWolfPsion]

Does pine ACTUALLY inhibit the conversion of urine into ammonia, or does it merely mask the odor of ammonia?

[wilomn]

Does pine ACTUALLY inhibit the conversion of urine into ammonia, or does it merely mask the odor of ammonia?

I don't use carefresh, being a Pine guy myself, but I know of many who do. When it gets wet, it stays wet. I think it stays wet longer than Pine does in similar circumstances. Since there is no chance of ammonia conversion in a dry environment I would "guess" that Pine would promote less ammonia.

Of course my guess, is just that.

Now if you keep or allow your Pine to stay wet, then sure, ammonia is inevitable. But in the short term, knowing only my own cages and their keeping intimately enough to comment, I have no worries with Pine.

[Skiploder]

Does pine ACTUALLY inhibit the conversion of urine into ammonia, or does it merely mask the odor of ammonia?

Masking the odor would have no effect on measurable ammonia levels. Beddings that slow or retard the growth of ammonia do so by absorption or by controlling the bacteria that breaks urine down into ammonia.

[kitedemon]

That is nice work Skip!

Ok so after some reading and a walk to the chem lab...

Phenol levels in pine wood I have no absolute information but I have had an opinion that it would be around 8-9 mg/m3. That is an opinion. We can smell the phenols in pine so lets say that aspen is somewhat lower that 8mg. Fair? that same can be said for oils in the wood you can feel pine oils where Aspen is noticeably less.

There are a huge amount of industrial uses of phenol and it is hard to find data on raw phenols in pine. The best info I can find is the limit value is about 35mg/m3 and that is raw. So lets say the safe limit is 10mg/m3 that is a guess! long tern exposure is less than that again. So my best guess raw pine would be at the very high end of safe. Kiln dried would be something lower than that but again it is a guess as to how much lower.

We can detect levels in pine so lets say at least 8mg/m3 we can smell.

Ammonia has very similar issues as phenols. The question is how long does urine take to become ammonia? I have not found that answer yet. Personally I check daily for urine and other things :-) so it is not likely to stay in the environment for long. it is more of an issue I would think the more snakes you have. So this is a yes and no. Yes it matters if there is a chance of urinates sitting for longer than 24 hours and no if it is shorter.

The other issue with paper substrates is the ammonia that is in the paper to start with and the trace dioxin. Carefresh has lots of info all conflicting and nothing based in evidence so it is impossible to make an informed opinion.

Phenols are demonized because of media hype. Why is dioxin ignored and PCDs demonized? Dioxin will kill you dead, pcbs might give you cancer.

What substrates are completely safe? I have no idea I am sure that with digging there is some issue with them all. Personally I use Cyprus coco husk mix (eco earth) I know how completely sad the cyprus issues are, I have been thinking of a switch to Aspen. Or just eco earth. Again I don't have answers only more questions. I can't find kiln dried pine chips that are free of bark and bit of junk. The bits I looked at was full of bark and aphids, ants and who knows what else. The pine chips where I am are kept outside in open piles. Clean kiln dried pine that is in sealed bags after it has been dried and doesn't smell super piney would likely be ok. I can't find any.

Interesting debate but to my mind there is no clear answer.

[Skiploder]

That is nice work Skip!

Ok so after some reading and a walk to the chem lab...

Phenol levels in pine wood I have no absolute information but I have had an opinion that it would be around 8-9 mg/m3. That is an opinion. We can smell the phenols in pine so lets say that aspen is somewhat lower that 8mg. Fair? that same can be said for oils in the wood you can feel pine oils where Aspen is noticeably less.

There are a huge amount of industrial uses of phenol and it is hard to find data on raw phenols in pine. The best info I can find is the limit value is about 35mg/m3 and that is raw. So lets say the safe limit is 10mg/m3 that is a guess! long tern exposure is less than that again. So my best guess raw pine would be at the very high end of safe. Kiln dried would be something lower than that but again it is a guess as to how much lower.

We can detect levels in pine so lets say at least 8mg/m3 we can smell.

Ammonia has very similar issues as phenols. The question is how long does urine take to become ammonia? I have not found that answer yet. Personally I check daily for urine and other things :-) so it is not likely to stay in the environment for long. it is more of an issue I would think the more snakes you have. So this is a yes and no. Yes it matters if there is a chance of urinates sitting for longer than 24 hours and no if it is shorter.

The other issue with paper substrates is the ammonia that is in the paper to start with and the trace dioxin. Carefresh has lots of info all conflicting and nothing based in evidence so it is impossible to make an informed opinion.

Phenols are demonized because of media hype. Why is dioxin ignored and PCDs demonized? Dioxin will kill you dead, pcbs might give you cancer.

What substrates are completely safe? I have no idea I am sure that with digging there is some issue with them all. Personally I use Cyprus coco husk mix (eco earth) I know how completely sad the cyprus issues are, I have been thinking of a switch to Aspen. Or just eco earth. Again I don't have answers only more questions. I can't find kiln dried pine chips that are free of bark and bit of junk. The bits I looked at was full of bark and aphids, ants and who knows what else. The pine chips where I am are kept outside in open piles. Clean kiln dried pine that is in sealed bags after it has been dried and doesn't smell super piney would likely be ok. I can't find any.

Interesting debate but to my mind there is no clear answer.

My local Ace Hardware is selling the two cubic foot blocks of coco coir for $3.99 each. I stocked up on some. They store real easily.

I have issues with aspen. It molds really easily and I've gotten some really smelly loads of it.

[WingedWolfPsion]

I realize that masking the odor of ammonia is different from reducing the level of ammonia, which is why I asked which pine actually does. Are there any studies on this?

I do recall a number of folks reporting skin infection problems with coconut coir bedding, possibly because it holds moisture a bit too well, remaining damp. Or perhaps they did not thoroughly dry it before using it. Still, is it economical at that price?

[kitedemon]

The coco hold moisture like crazy I usually mix up what I need with water press out as much as I can then crumble in dry and mix it really well. I'll then let it dry out on a sheet for a day or two before I use it. Even at that I'll hit 65-75 % for the first day or so that is why I have been mixing cyprus in to it the cyprus is drier and drops it back. Yes it is a pain in the butt doing all that.