The Pine Debate

[wilomn]

No, again--no one has done any studies on the effects of the volatile oils in pine on snakes--not that I am aware of.

Also, no one has done any studies to see if switching from another type of bedding over to pine has increased respiratory issues in their snakes.

That was my point. Since we DON'T know, most people choose to play it safe, and not use something that causes harm in other species of animals. You're promoting the idea that they should assume it is safe, because there's no direct evidence that it isn't safe.

It is irrelevant whether there is proof, or evidence, that it causes harm to snakes, because there is no proof, or evidence, that it does not. There is no evidence one way or the other. What large breeders choose to do is likewise not relevant, because THEY HAVE NO EVIDENCE, EITHER.

Snakes live for a very long time. It's easy to see a pattern in animals that live for only 4 or 5 years, tops. In animals that live to be 30, it's MUCH more difficult to see a trend in the form of shortened lifespans. I would hazard that only someone with a HUGE collection running an actual experiment--using pine for half and newspaper or aspen for half--over a span of perhaps 60 years--could have a hope of providing a real answer on this.

However, in the short term, some lab student could easily conduct a test on liver enzymes in snakes kept on pine versus those kept on aspen or newspaper. I would be VERY interested in seeing the results of such a test.

If the results showed that liver enzymes were not elevated in snakes on pine, I would switch to using pine myself. But I need evidence before I risk my snakes--positive scientific evidence, not mere 'I didn't notice anything' by keepers.

Hole in Theory Number 1.
The liver is not the sole filter of the body.
Hole 2.
There are those who have kept snakes for decades, maybe not six but more than three, on pine. Still doing fine, still breeding regularly, still looking fantastic. Personal experience.

I personally have not noticed detrimental effects from pine on any snake I've kept it on. I have kept thousands and thousands of snakes on pine. Not tens, not hundreds, thousands and thousands. Mice too. Rats as well.

If you're gotten snakes from me or seen them at a show....Pine.
If you've gotten rats from me or seen them at a show.... Pine.

No sneezing, no sniffling, no coughing. Fat healthy snakes and their food.

All on pine.

[Skiploder]

Hole in Theory Number 1.
The liver is not the sole filter of the body.
Hole 2.
There are those who have kept snakes for decades, maybe not six but more than three, on pine. Still doing fine, still breeding regularly, still looking fantastic. Personal experience.

I personally have not noticed detrimental effects from pine on any snake I've kept it on. I have kept thousands and thousands of snakes on pine. Not tens, not hundreds, thousands and thousands. Mice too. Rats as well.

If you're gotten snakes from me or seen them at a show....Pine.
If you've gotten rats from me or seen them at a show.... Pine.

No sneezing, no sniffling, no coughing. Fat healthy snakes and their food.

All on pine.

Hole in Theory #3 - Elevated enzyme levels are a normal part of the detoxification process. None of those oft quoted studies have ever correlated elevated enyzme levels to liver disease.

Hole in Theory #4 - While the debate rages on the safety of pine that is not heat treated, there really is no debate on heat treated or kiln dried pine. I repeat, the safety of heat treated pine is not debateable.

Where am I getting that info? Well, Wingy, go run around Google looking for the relevant studies. When you get tired of not finding an easy answer, come back and maybe I'll throw ya a bone.

Hole in Theory #5 - Donna, you can't simultaneously claim that snakes have a more delicate respiratory system and then claim that rats and mice more readily show signs of pine induced stress. I mean you can, but you do realize that those two claims contradict each other, don't you?

How does a delicate flower of a snake go 20 years on pine and not show any effects, but a hardy old rat becomes a pine-induced invalid within a short period of time?

[Chuckels]

I did not know that Pine was harmful to rodents. Ive been using Pine in my rodent cages for over 2 years now, and I have never had an issue.

[WingedWolfPsion]

I did not know that Pine was harmful to rodents. Ive been using Pine in my rodent cages for over 2 years now, and I have never had an issue.

If you're keeping a pet rat, it's a poor choice, as it will cause lots of sniffles, and they'll die at a younger age.
If you're keeping feeder breeders, they won't live long enough to die from complications due to being kept on pine.

[wilomn]

If you're keeping a pet rat, it's a poor choice, as it will cause lots of sniffles, and they'll die at a younger age.
If you're keeping feeder breeders, they won't live long enough to die from complications due to being kept on pine.

Your first sentence is a flat out lie. I've got over 100 adults here you can come listen to any time you like. They've never been on anything but pine. I've got to be 30 generations on pine.

You second sentence is pure balderdash. You may have studies to back it up but as has been said, kraplan isn't known for accuracy, honesty or intelligence. I've had pet rats live 3 or 4 years on pine.

Do you have ANY personal experience with it?

As far as your scientists and measurements go, I may not be going to that extreme but my snakes eat, breed, move, live long lives and have multiple generations all while living on pine from hatchling to old age. I have decades of experience with, as I said, thousands of snakes. My information, though it directly contradicts what you regurgitate, is true, accurate and time tested.

[WingedWolfPsion]

That's the problem, you can't take the individual experiences of a few people, and say 'oh, see, well that proves it, it's safe'.

If snakes aren't reacting to pine in a similar fashion to the way rats do, then they aren't very likely to show elevated liver enzymes if kept on pine, the way rats do. If that is so, then it might be safe for them, but you cannot know until you test it.

Your argument simply makes no sense.
Rats carry mycoplasma, it makes them very sensitive to respiratory irritants. Ball pythons have one large primary lung, and only a tiny secondary lung, and they have no diaphragm, so they can't cough--that makes them sensitive to respiratory issues as well, though possibly not as sensitive as rats.
But this isn't about a simple respiratory irritant, it's about toxins that affect other organ systems in the body.

Where is the logic in taking an unnecessary chance with the health of valuable animals that we care about?

Are you honestly trying to claim that 'so and so does it and he says he never had a problem' is equal to an actual scientific study? Are you honestly trying to claim that because you haven't NOTICED a problem, that means there isn't one, period?

Why are you trying to promote pine as safe, when you have no scientific evidence to back it up? Since we know pine is not safe for some other animals, FOR WHAT REASON would we take the risk without the data on whether or not it is completely safe for snakes?

That's what I'm asking her--my main question--WHY TAKE THAT RISK?