The Pine Debate

[tonkatoyman]

There are many things the big boys do that for the sake of appearance they will never admit to. This may be one of them, until public opinion changes.

[SansCera]

they will never admit to.

No need to admit to it. Just watch a single episode of SnakeBytes. Brian is VERY passionate about his animals and I'm sure would not use pine if it harmed his collection.

I worked for a reptile pet store for ~6 years and we used kiln dried pine shavings for most of the snakes. No problems that I can remember. For snakes that wanted higher humidity we used cypress mulch.

I personally use paper. For the same reason Kaorte does. I would really like something like shavings that didn't need so much servicing but I can't stand loose bedding all over the place.

On another note. I really enjoy reading your posts Skip

[wilomn]

Newbs make mistakes. They buy the wrong heating elements. They get the wrong cages. They purchase inferior equipment. I suppose, given all those possible mistakes just waiting for the freshonthescene herper, we should definitely remove from possibility even the slimmest of chances that one so poorly informed would purchase not only the dreaded pine shaving, but one that has not been properly dried in a kiln. Yes, we should do this .... because....ummmmmm, because they're smart enough to make all the other choices necessary to keep snakes but this one is beyond them?

That doesn't make sense to me.

How many of you have seen pine, not for horse stalls, that is still wet enough that it is obvious there was no drying?

I've got one snake, he will be 22 this year. I've kept him on a variety of beddings but 90% of his life has been on pine. I've got another who is going to be 17 in a couple of weeks. Pine. Several others in the 15 to 18 year range. All pine.

[WingedWolfPsion]

I think the reason this started to begin with is that the volatile oils in pine clearly are toxic to rodents--rats and mice kept on pine suffer from increased incidence of respiratory ailments, and generally die at a younger age, showing signs of changes to their internal organs consistent with toxin exposure, such as elevated liver enzymes, as well as increased mortality rates in pups.

Therefore, it was concluded, if these volatile oils can be so harmful to rodents, they probably are not good for snakes either, since snakes tend to have fairly delicate respiratory systems.

But no--I've not heard of an actual study being done on snakes.

However, if true, then one would expect to see a somewhat increased incidence of RIs in snakes on pine, and one would expect them to generally die at a younger age than snakes kept on toxin-free substrates. The problem is, ball pythons can live for up to 30 years, so what exactly is a 'younger age'? A person with an old snake that dies may not bother to have it necropsied...and relatively few people have had a ball python for its entire 25 to 30 years of life.

The story of pine is simply one of 'playing it safe'. Something proven harmful and toxic to other animals is best avoided until studies are done that prove it safe for snakes. There is no reason to consider it safe until proven otherwise when it clearly kills rats. It's cheaper, yes--but the bottom line of an extra few years of life for a python is worth more to a breeder than the bit of extra savings from using pine over aspen--even if you remove the ethical considerations entirely.

Or, to put it more simply, do you want to trust your female coral glow pied to a bedding that causes rats to wheeze and snuffle and die at half their usual lifespan?

[Freakie_frog]

Or, to put it more simply, do you want to trust your female coral glow pied to a bedding that causes rats to wheeze and snuffle and die at half their usual lifespan?

If I had Skips experience and years of successfully doing so then sure why not..After all regardless of the paint job its still a ball python. Would I ever use pine, probably not simply because I'd have to know that I know that I know that my supplier is drying the stuff really well.. Hell I've gotten pine for rats that smells like smoke and has huge burned chunks in it..

I'm not comfortable with it..that's me,, I've heard Bailey talk about things he does that make my butt hole pucker..that's him he's comfortable doing it and has great success doing it..

I'm just not confident enough with my local product to try it..

[Skiploder]

Again Donna - name me one person you know that has had a snake suffer a decreased lifespan or has had an increased rate of respiratory distress due to keeping snakes on pine.

I mean if I take your word for it that feeders are becoming chronically ill from it, shouldn't snakes and their "fairly delicate" systems show obvious signs of trouble?

[Skiploder]

I only named breeders who have either discussed on their care sheets or on forums that they use or recommend pine. Again, Barczyk and Spuckler are easy examples.

I live by the East Bay Vivarium and have dealt with Owen and Jon for years. Not only do they almost exclusively use pine (for caging, breeding, etc.) they recommend it even though they sell bulk aspen, bulk cypress, etc.

I could easily name another dozen well-respected people in the hobby who use it but considering the e-taboo on the stuff I'm not going to "out" anyone.

Why would people who make their bread and butter on the successful propagation of snakes use it if it was so damaging long term to their livelihood?

Tin foil hat theories welcome.

In the mean time, chew on this. Aspen (despite uninformed claims to the contrary) also contains phenols, catechols and salicins. What do they use these for? Just like pine - defense against potential predators.

So, has anyone figured out yet what the long term effects of these compounds on snakes is yet?

[WingedWolfPsion]

No, again--no one has done any studies on the effects of the volatile oils in pine on snakes--not that I am aware of.

Also, no one has done any studies to see if switching from another type of bedding over to pine has increased respiratory issues in their snakes.

That was my point. Since we DON'T know, most people choose to play it safe, and not use something that causes harm in other species of animals. You're promoting the idea that they should assume it is safe, because there's no direct evidence that it isn't safe.

It is irrelevant whether there is proof, or evidence, that it causes harm to snakes, because there is no proof, or evidence, that it does not. There is no evidence one way or the other. What large breeders choose to do is likewise not relevant, because THEY HAVE NO EVIDENCE, EITHER.

Snakes live for a very long time. It's easy to see a pattern in animals that live for only 4 or 5 years, tops. In animals that live to be 30, it's MUCH more difficult to see a trend in the form of shortened lifespans. I would hazard that only someone with a HUGE collection running an actual experiment--using pine for half and newspaper or aspen for half--over a span of perhaps 60 years--could have a hope of providing a real answer on this.

However, in the short term, some lab student could easily conduct a test on liver enzymes in snakes kept on pine versus those kept on aspen or newspaper. I would be VERY interested in seeing the results of such a test.

If the results showed that liver enzymes were not elevated in snakes on pine, I would switch to using pine myself. But I need evidence before I risk my snakes--positive scientific evidence, not mere 'I didn't notice anything' by keepers.

[wilomn]

No, again--no one has done any studies on the effects of the volatile oils in pine on snakes--not that I am aware of.

Also, no one has done any studies to see if switching from another type of bedding over to pine has increased respiratory issues in their snakes.

That was my point. Since we DON'T know, most people choose to play it safe, and not use something that causes harm in other species of animals. You're promoting the idea that they should assume it is safe, because there's no direct evidence that it isn't safe.

It is irrelevant whether there is proof, or evidence, that it causes harm to snakes, because there is no proof, or evidence, that it does not. There is no evidence one way or the other. What large breeders choose to do is likewise not relevant, because THEY HAVE NO EVIDENCE, EITHER.

Snakes live for a very long time. It's easy to see a pattern in animals that live for only 4 or 5 years, tops. In animals that live to be 30, it's MUCH more difficult to see a trend in the form of shortened lifespans. I would hazard that only someone with a HUGE collection running an actual experiment--using pine for half and newspaper or aspen for half--over a span of perhaps 60 years--could have a hope of providing a real answer on this.

However, in the short term, some lab student could easily conduct a test on liver enzymes in snakes kept on pine versus those kept on aspen or newspaper. I would be VERY interested in seeing the results of such a test.

If the results showed that liver enzymes were not elevated in snakes on pine, I would switch to using pine myself. But I need evidence before I risk my snakes--positive scientific evidence, not mere 'I didn't notice anything' by keepers.

Hole in Theory Number 1.
The liver is not the sole filter of the body.
Hole 2.
There are those who have kept snakes for decades, maybe not six but more than three, on pine. Still doing fine, still breeding regularly, still looking fantastic. Personal experience.

I personally have not noticed detrimental effects from pine on any snake I've kept it on. I have kept thousands and thousands of snakes on pine. Not tens, not hundreds, thousands and thousands. Mice too. Rats as well.

If you're gotten snakes from me or seen them at a show....Pine.
If you've gotten rats from me or seen them at a show.... Pine.

No sneezing, no sniffling, no coughing. Fat healthy snakes and their food.

All on pine.

[Skiploder]

Hole in Theory Number 1.
The liver is not the sole filter of the body.
Hole 2.
There are those who have kept snakes for decades, maybe not six but more than three, on pine. Still doing fine, still breeding regularly, still looking fantastic. Personal experience.

I personally have not noticed detrimental effects from pine on any snake I've kept it on. I have kept thousands and thousands of snakes on pine. Not tens, not hundreds, thousands and thousands. Mice too. Rats as well.

If you're gotten snakes from me or seen them at a show....Pine.
If you've gotten rats from me or seen them at a show.... Pine.

No sneezing, no sniffling, no coughing. Fat healthy snakes and their food.

All on pine.

Hole in Theory #3 - Elevated enzyme levels are a normal part of the detoxification process. None of those oft quoted studies have ever correlated elevated enyzme levels to liver disease.

Hole in Theory #4 - While the debate rages on the safety of pine that is not heat treated, there really is no debate on heat treated or kiln dried pine. I repeat, the safety of heat treated pine is not debateable.

Where am I getting that info? Well, Wingy, go run around Google looking for the relevant studies. When you get tired of not finding an easy answer, come back and maybe I'll throw ya a bone.

Hole in Theory #5 - Donna, you can't simultaneously claim that snakes have a more delicate respiratory system and then claim that rats and mice more readily show signs of pine induced stress. I mean you can, but you do realize that those two claims contradict each other, don't you?

How does a delicate flower of a snake go 20 years on pine and not show any effects, but a hardy old rat becomes a pine-induced invalid within a short period of time?