Toxic Plastic--What A Gas!

[kitedemon]

I have been reading more, with PVC plastics that greatest danger is NOT rigid plastic but soft. Like aquarium air lines, potentally leeching phthalates. So still not too much of a concern with stiff plastic tubs unless they are custom made from lexan.

Polyethylene and Polypropylene both seem fine unless you burn them so if you plastic racks are on fire your animals could inhale toxic gas... maybe you should save them from the fire.

I don't think that unless you work in firefighting this is a massive concern, just don't burn it. If you melt holes do that in a well ventilated area or with a respirator.

Still it is worth the 5 min to peek under the tub to find out what code it carrys and if it is a questionable one personally I'd invest the 8 bucks for a new one that is a safer plastic. No big deal.

[Bruce Whitehead]

WingedWolf...

Nice of you to cover your friend's butt, but the suggestion of a compelling arguement and links/citations was to allow her to gain a bit credibility, as at this point she is simply coming across like a troll with an agenda.

My suggestion was genuine, but she opted to ignore it, as she has most of the points that do not agree with hers, so I believe most do not see these multiple threads as even being valid at this point.

She has stated that it came to her in a eureka moment, she googled, she cut and pasted. That is not a compelling arguement to me, nor is it research. Nor is this an area with which she has sufficient expertise or knowledge.

She is dealing off the cuff and figuring it out as she goes along. As soon as this gets old (and it has) she will simply start another thread as a distraction.

People can play the game with her or they can opt out of it.

Personally, I have snakestubs to clean.

And yeah, what Del said.

Bruce

[chago11]

You're right in that no rules have been broken here...although if I wanted to get extremely nit-picky, I might think calling her a "Ms Knowitall" might be construed as name-calling.

Yes, it IS very annoying at times when someone gets on a really big soapbox about a particular issue they are passionate about...most especially when their position doesn't seem to be backed up by anything but personal opinion. But...do you ("you" being anyone reading and participating in this thread, not necessarily just the member being quoted)...do you really think that the overall participation in this thread has been beneficial to the site?

We get complaints that so-n-so really shouldn't be starting such an annoying thread because it doesn't help the site....but at the same time, the same folks making such a complaint spend their time mocking and otherwise deriding the points made in the original post. Which is more harmful to the overall atmosphere of the site? The original post? Or all the mocking scorn that comes after it?

Seriously....I don't agree with her position. And I don't mind anyone offering up an attempt at a logical, reasonable rebuttal. But all the negative posts made AFTER the original offending post are just as bad, if not worse.

So yeah....I'll just tell everyone who doesn't like what she has to say to simply skip her threads or put her on Ignore altogether. But so long as she respects the site and the rules of the site, she has just as much right to express her opinion here as everyone else.

i agree. in my opinion if you dont like what she has to say dont post anything on her thread. she has her way of doing things as long as her snakes are healthy i dont have a problem with what she has to say even if i dont agree. i use both tanks and tubs and never had a problem with neither of them.

[WingedWolfPsion]

I'm sorry Bruce, but I don't know her. Her point was valid, so I provided supporting evidence, as it seemed people were quick to dismiss due to some personal bias (which is always a mistake when we're discussing animal husbandry--this isn't a popularity contest, lol).

In defense of plastic cages for ALL ball pythons:
These cages hold heat and humidity far better than a glass tank. The biggest challenge in keeping ball pythons healthy over time is providing them with proper, even temperatures and correct humidity. Humidity is often the BIGGEST challenge, and there are many ball pythons surviving in a near-constant state of low-grade dehydration, because their owners don't understand that misting during the shed cycle is not enough.

What's more glass cages are generally put together with siliconed joints, which provides areas where debris and bacteria can hide out. Plastic cages can be far more thoroughly disinfected. Due to their weight, glass cages are less likely to be frequently cleaned.

The trade-off may result in better health for pythons kept in plastic cages, whether they outgas some toxins or not.

Keep in mind that snakes kept in glass tanks are still being exposed to endocrine disrupting chemicals. The water coming from your tap is the culprit. Use bottled water? What is it bottled in? What was used to process it? The answer is plastic--plastic, and more plastic, right back to the source, which is loaded with plastic. Remember, remarkably low amounts of endocrine disruptors cause big changes. Keeping the animals in plastic tubs--or not--may very well make no difference at all, because they have constant exposure from other sources.

If truly non-toxic plastics are created to replace those now known to be harmful, I will certainly jump on the bandwagon to replace the tubs and racks I'm using. In the meantime, I believe that keeping these snakes in plastic makes superior husbandry feasible for most people.

It's true, mammal studies cannot be extrapolated directly to reptiles, but chemicals that disrupt the endocrine system of mammals will also disrupt the endocrine systems of other creatures that HAVE endocrine systems. This has proven to be true so far. That was my point when I said that "It is better to error on the side of caution while awaiting more concrete data".
The rat studies are the first done.
HOWEVER...they aren't the last. Endocrine disruption due to BPA has now been confirmed in fish.
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es000198n

I was going to say they hadn't been done in birds yet, but I found this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC227031/

If it affects mammals, birds, and fish in the same way...chances that reptiles are immune are next to none.

[Shock]

Could you please post a pic of Alexander's "habitat"?

[DJ_Bizarre]

So does this mean I'm safe with my sterilite tubs that have 5s on them? I'd guess so

[771subliminal]

Could you please post a pic of Alexander's "habitat"?

Above are three pictures. The first one is in his bottom den, the second one is when he went on top of his den and the 3rd is the front of his home. I did something different. I turned the fish tank on it's side and bought the heavy duty metal tank topper with door. This gives more floor space and very easy access so he can come out daily with no hassle of sliding the tank out. Plus since heat rises it will actually keep the heat in better with the top being solid.

[WingedWolfPsion]

Unless your room is humidified to 60%, though, you may have to cover most of that 'screen front' with plastic (or wood) to trap humidity. It looks like it wouldn't do a very good job of that.

Also, if those rocks aren't actually attached, you may want to silicone them down. Ball pythons are extremely strong, and they can push over things you wouldn't think they would be able to. I wouldn't want to see him shift that structure and be injured.

DJ--as safe as anything. It's too late to avoid contamination from things like BPA and Phthalates. I'm pretty sure that as time passes, they'll find that other types of plastics have issues as well. They never really WERE properly tested, and they're made from petroleum.

Have plastics saved more lives than they have ended? It's an interesting question. We will need to replace them as soon as possible with something safe that has similar properties--it's a devil's bargain at the moment.

Out in the Pacific lies at least 700 square kilometers of exceptionally high concentrations of pelagic plastics, chemical sludge, and other debris. It's called the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, and it's a sign of the legacy of plastic that could be with us for a very, very long time...

So, I say, our ball pythons are as safe in their plastic bins as we are in our homes.

[blackcrystal22]

I don't think this girl knows what a Peer-Reviewed Scholarly article even means.

And see, that is why she has no sources what-so-ever. Therefore, her argument is invalid and not credible.

When you try to take a fact and put it with an opinionated topic, you better have a credible source, or you're really just blowing things out of your arsenal.

[David802]

i agree. in my opinion if you dont like what she has to say dont post anything on her thread. she has her way of doing things as long as her snakes are healthy i dont have a problem with what she has to say even if i dont agree. i use both tanks and tubs and never had a problem with neither of them.

Just a couple of things to note.

1 that post is 2 days old
2 it was in response to a question I asked directly to the moderators.

So, thank you for your opinion but if someone is interested in it they will ask you specifically or ask a question to the whole board. They will not do something like type "@ the moderators" or "@ insert name here".