Snakes/Reptiles and their Emotions The argument

[j_h_smith]

I'm always intrigued by these kind of arguments.

But even so, I do not feel that emotions are applicable to reptiles based on their behavior. Why would they need them? Reptiles do not bond to mates, they do not form friendships, a very high percentage of them are not maternal..

Ever try to reach in to grab a newly laid clutch of eggs while the mom is wrapped around these eggs? I do believe there is a maternal instinct there to be sure.

Just an observation!
Jim Smith

[BPelizabeth]

I totally did not take it like that Must be.... I got it. Its all good!!

Look....I would love to hope they love me as much as I love them....as most of you already know....I am totally over the top with my all of my babies.

Do they...probably not. But still I would like to keep an open mind that maybe someday we will learn that we were great big dumb butts and they are totally trying to communicate with us on a different level.

[MustBeSatan]

Okay, here's a question to keep this thread constructive.

If we assume that snakes feel emotion, do we assume they feel boredom? If they do, aren't we really big jerks? I mean... What do they have in their lives to stimulate them mentally? Even a fairly large tank, with lots of things to climb on and in, would eventually become so boring that a human in the same situation would go insane.

[coldblooded]

Ever try to reach in to grab a newly laid clutch of eggs while the mom is wrapped around these eggs? I do believe there is a maternal instinct there to be sure.

Just an observation!
Jim Smith

I did say a very high percentage, not all.

My leopard geckos hardly give a rip when I go to get their eggs out of the lay boxes.

Ball pythons are a species that maternally incubate eggs. It would be a good response for them to act aggressively towards something that may threaten them or their clutch.

[BPelizabeth]

Okay, here's a question to keep this thread constructive.

If we assume that snakes feel emotion, do we assume they feel boredom? If they do, aren't we really big jerks? I mean... What do they have in their lives to stimulate them mentally? Even a fairly large tank, with lots of things to climb on and in, would eventually become so boring that a human in the same situation would go insane.

we take ours out everyday except when they are in shed or for the 48 hours after they eat. They get tons of exercise here and each has their own thing that they like to do. Except maybe Isabella the new little tiny one. She is a little scared of everything still but she hasn't even hit 100 grams yet. Not quite sure what we are going to do as the number grows though. It will be interesting around here. lol I actually thought about making them a little "pen" so to speak where it had things for them to do. You could put them in there and not worry about them taking off under the couch.

But again....I am over the top and clearly have waaaaaaaayyyyyyy to much time on my hands.

[rabernet]

Ever try to reach in to grab a newly laid clutch of eggs while the mom is wrapped around these eggs? I do believe there is a maternal instinct there to be sure.

Just an observation!
Jim Smith

Actually I have, and knock wood, my females really don't seem to care. They come off their eggs easily. And once the scent of eggs is washed off of them and their tub, they don't have any further maternal instinct towards them.

I ADORE my snakes, every last one of them. Most of them are named. But I don't have any doubt, that if set loose outside, that they wouldn't just slither off without any concern about leaving me behind.

As I said earlier, I don't have any NEED for them to reciprocate the feelings that I have for them. I love, admire and respect them for being magnificently "them".

[j_h_smith]

Actually I have, and knock wood, my females really don't seem to care. They come off their eggs easily. And once the scent of eggs is washed off of them and their tub, they don't have any further maternal instinct towards them.

I ADORE my snakes, every last one of them. Most of them are named. But I don't have any doubt, that if set loose outside, that they wouldn't just slither off without any concern about leaving me behind.

As I said earlier, I don't have any NEED for them to reciprocate the feelings that I have for them. I love, admire and respect them for being magnificently "them".

I hope I haven't given the wrong impression. I am not saying that snakes have emotions. My argument was to stress the importance of looking outside the box and not standing on status quo. We do not know what a snake's brain is capable of. Wwe may think we do, but we thought the world was flat at one time too. Just throwing it out there.

Jim Smith

[RockyTop]

I hope I haven't given the wrong impression. I am not saying that snakes have emotions. My argument was to stress the importance of looking outside the box and not standing on status quo. We do not know what a snake's brain is capable of. Wwe may think we do, but we thought the world was flat at one time too. Just throwing it out there.

Jim Smith

I totally understand your point of view.

If anything, you are encouraging people to not accept what they are told as fact, but to keep an open mind about new ideas. Like you said, if everyone just accepted the world was flat... it would be flat. And at one time, everyone accepted that the universe rotated around the earth. Everyone simply heard what scientists have discovered, and accepted it for truth.

The problem is, those new theories were never accepted until proven scientifically. Unfortunately, this whole discussion is the same way. Currently, science states that reptiles do not have the same emotions that we do. They survive on instinct, that is all they process. So we accept that as fact. And until someone comes along and scientifically proves it otherwise, I am going to have to believe it. Am I the one to prove that? Not a chance lol.

Am I wrong? Who knows. Nobody does. Which is why science is so fascinating. It can be earth shattering, ground breaking, amazing discoveries.

Interesting fact:

As little as 200 years ago, no one had even heard the word Dinosaur. Prehistoric giant lizards that dominated the planet? Yeah right. Wasn't until the 1820's when a man by the name William Buckland discovered some really big teeth in England. The name Dinosaur was coined in the 1840's.

Put that in perspective. The founding fathers of the US knew nothing of Dinosaurs. Ben Franklin and George Washington both died in the 1790s. They knew nothing of dinosaurs.

A short 200 years later, it is accepted fact that prehistoric lizards did walk the earth millions of years ago. Do you think people 200 years ago (1800), sat around and thought up these giant lizards? Of course not. That would be ridiculous and impossible.

Our lifetime is nothing but a mere blip in history. Who knows what the future holds. I am sure in 200 years, we will all be laughed at for accepting something that is proven to be completely inaccurate. Or a whole new discovery entirely.

Sorry to derail the thread. And no, my snakes don't love me.

[MustBeSatan]

Very well said.

[Kyle@theHeathertoft]

Whoa this thread got long. Jeez, I get busy and can't check the internet as often as I'd like for, what, a week or so? And then I spend half an hour reading seven pages of debate. XD

This is the best explanation on this subject ever (IMO) when the next person beats on this horse this post should be pasted and the thread locked.

LOL, thanks.

I ADORE my snakes, every last one of them. Most of them are named. But I don't have any doubt, that if set loose outside, that they wouldn't just slither off without any concern about leaving me behind.

As I said earlier, I don't have any NEED for them to reciprocate the feelings that I have for them. I love, admire and respect them for being magnificently "them".

This is exactly how I feel, too.

I can't help but feel that many people who insist their snakes feel emotion are probably misreading the animal. Macchiato seems to "like" me because I'm familiar to him...he's handled often and knows that my scent = safety. He's a little more cautious about unfamiliar people. They are, to him, unknown and therefore a possible threat.

I don't think he has any emotional attachment to me, though. I tried, the other day, to believe he had emotions. I watched him, let him crawl all over, sang to him (thankfully my roommate wasn't about, as I do not sing particularly well) and basically slathered him with affection.

If I really tried, I could imagine that some of his actions were emotionally based. If I tried.

Realistically, it was simpler and more sensical to assign basic instinctual repsonses...occam's razor, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

At one point, I set him on the couch, and he immediately crawled onto my lap and curled up. If I wanted to believe he has emotions, I'd claim he was cuddling, because he likes me.

However, let's look at the facts...the couch is the favourite hangout of the resident cats, and I think he views their scent as that of predators, and he knows my scent means a safe perch or a warm place to nap. Ergo, my lap is FAR more attractive than a cat-smelling not-warm sofa!

I guess what I'm getting at, is that people who want to believe their reptiles have emotions will assign motive and emotion to actions that lack emotions entirely. Ergo, they have their proof. I for one cannot believe it. It isn't that I don't WANT to, it'd be nice if my snakes love me...

...but I don't NEED them to love me in order to love THEM.

Want versus need. Wow, I should probably shut up and get some sleep.