Line/Inbreeding

[rabernet]

I apologize profusely for my passion on this subject. I did not intend to be rude or offend anyone. I do admit again that I need to learn more about reptile genetics, but I will not go back on anything I have said about genetics in general or the fact that kinks and wobbles can (and have) been bred out. (Unless these reputable breeders are all lying and I doubt that is the case)
My spider does not wobble. So perhaps I will just hold my tongue on the subject and get back to it again in a few years after kinkless and wobbleless snakes are more well known. I can clearly see that this is an utterly pointless discussion. I think I will return to lurking for the time being.

Please don't go back to lurk mode. We're all passionate about these animals, many of us have been working with them for quite some time, and have discussed this with the industry leaders time and time again. Your claims are NOT what the industry leaders are saying, and so of course, people want to know how you came to your conclusions.

I'm personally unaware of any reputable breeder who will claim that they have spiders (or know of spiders) where the wobble has been bred out. And spiders have been around for quite some time. As I mentioned in the other thread, Kevin McCurley of NERD has stated that all spiders spin, Ralph Davis has pubically stated that all spiders wobble/spin/ are tweaked. These guys have been working with ball pythons for a LONG time, and they've seen far more spiders than you and I have, and know far more people in the business than you and I do - and they still say all spiders spin (or wobble).

I'm also unaware of any reputable breeder that claims that they have a line (other than the Crider aka Ultramel) caramel albino's that don't kink, but then the Crider/Ultramel are considered a completely different morph than the traditional caramel albino. I do know that there's a lot of theory that caramel albino eggs need to be incubated a little cooler and a little drier than most clutches to reduce the incidence of kinking, but that has little to do with line breeding or in-breeding.

I had one of my spiders out last night after this topic was started to see if I could see his wobble. At first I couldn't see it at all, and then ever so slightly, even wondering if it was my hand shaking, I could see the slightest "tremor" in his head. I put him down on a stable surface to rule out my hand movement, and it was there.

I guess what frustrates me personally is that the spider is an awesome mutation, with a condition that "I" believe is genetically linked to the spider (only the spiders, not the normal siblings, spin/wobble). And so many people think that it's such a taboo thing that their spider might also spin/wobble. But those of us who keep spiders and have seen hundreds of spiders, know and believe without a doubt in our minds that all spiders are "tweaked" to varying degrees.

Spiders - you either love them, or you hate/fear them and their wobble. I personally LOVE my four and their uniquely spider personalities. I embrace them for what they are - spiders who wobble. I will never sell any of my spider offspring as "non wobblers" because I don't believe that to be true of any spider. I will take the time to educate my customers who may be new to ball pythons about spiders and what I know about them.

Please know, Delilah, I'm not mad or upset with you - nor taking any of this out on you - I think it's a great discussion - one that I'm passionate about as well.

You do have to recognize though, that mammalian genetics and reptile genetics are somewhat different when it comes to line/in breeding.